4AGE 20V Performance - What have you got?

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Re: 4AGE 20V Performance - What have you got?

Postby dskd » Sat May 30, 2015 6:27 pm

"Nice discussion on the 20v power capability. With a 1600cc bottom end id say 240hp is the max you will get.
Up those ccs its then proven to make up to 270hp. The heads we get CNC ported flow enough to support this power."

is that turbo ? or still n/a
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Re: 4AGE 20V Performance - What have you got?

Postby Bazda » Sat May 30, 2015 7:10 pm

dskd wrote:"Nice discussion on the 20v power capability. With a 1600cc bottom end id say 240hp is the max you will get.
Up those ccs its then proven to make up to 270hp. The heads we get CNC ported flow enough to support this power."

is that turbo ? or still n/a


We are talking n/a here.
Turbo on the other hand is limitless. We have a customer in Russia making 956whp with our stroker kit
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Re: 4AGE 20V Performance - What have you got?

Postby Surge » Sun May 31, 2015 11:48 pm

Here's a few dyno plots for my 20V Blacktop as I've modified it:

All runs on NZEFI's dynapack hub dyno.
Initial run:
Stock (internally) Blacktop 20V 4AGE with:
Toda 272/272 Cams
Uprated Kelford Springs
Factory ECU.
SQ Engineering 100mm Velocity Stacks

I've also plotted VVT on and VVT off.
Image
AFR for that same run.
Image


Now this one shows two separate runs (the older plotted in bright green)

Older run (bright green)
Link G4+ Atom
Tomei Fuel Pressure Reg (slightly raised pressure)

Newer run (red)
The only change here was moving up to a 2.5" exhaust from the factory downpipe (that runs under the engine) back. So basically, massive gains everywhere with the move up to 2.5"
Image

So talking peak numbers: 10kw gain (almost exactly) 13.4 hp in old money - but the dyno graph shows the difference in driveability better than just looking at peak power. Power is much more linear and comes on much earlier (for a 20v...)
Last edited by Surge on Mon Jun 01, 2015 12:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 4AGE 20V Performance - What have you got?

Postby 1I1 » Wed Jun 03, 2015 6:23 pm

Flannelman wrote:The discussion I would like to start is, who has any of the above. What is it like to live with (be track car or road) AND has anyone else gone a step further than me and have 270 degree cams/large plenum/silvertop throttle bodies/ported head/after market headers. Something that I see as the killer combo to match a Honda "B16".



To follow up on this comment with something rather interesting - a buddy just had his B16A dyno'd with intake, headers, exhaust, chipped ECU and Integra TypeR cams which are a bit bigger than 270's (close to 280 iirc). That made 125kw@8000rpm. Biggest difference against my 20v though with Kelford 270's was the midrange. Mine has a good 20-25 kw more at 5,500!


Also interesting results there Surge, that answers Flannelman's question about running 272's on a stock ECU
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Re: 4AGE 20V Performance - What have you got?

Postby Flannelman » Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:58 pm

I've put my money where my mouth is and got a cam regrind through Auckland Cams. This way cost $290 just for the cams including return postage (getting them there what up to me)

Cam specs are set for both intake and exhaust (not a split duration cam)

Lift...............8.3mm
Duration.........234@0.050"
...................280@0.006" (advertised)

The hardest part was sorting out the shims, they needed to be 0.037" (0.94mm) thick.

To anyone wanting to go down this road, there are three options.
1) Weld the top of the valve
2) Order thicker shims via Toyota
3) Create a new shim

Solutions
1) As the head wasn't apart, this option didn't get a look in. I have also heard/read horror stories of the weld failing. It will take some serious convincing otherwise if this option will ever be used by me in the future.

2)While the first barrier was $550 for a new set of shims wasn't bad enough, they didn't go to the required thickness.

Which leaves...
3)After a day of searching for what is known as shim stock with no success, I settled on something that was cheap, readily available and made of the right material that will neither shatter or deform when being hit at +4000rpm... a Skillsaw Blade.
With this material, it was taken to an engineer who ground it down from 1.5mm to the correct 0.94mm. With this set, it was off to the waterjet cutters who cut from this 20 18mm diameter discs.

With the new shims made, the process of a drop in cam was started. First, both cams were removed and the cam gears installed on the new shafts. Next, was the one at a time task of lifting a bucket, make sure the standard shim was on the valve, use some grease to hold the new "extra" shim under the bucket, and put the bucket back in its hole. (I hope this doesn't sound complex)
After this, it was a simple smear the cam in break in lube, then cam in, torque up the caps, install the timing belt, ect back to a running engine. I was surprised when all this took 2 hours!

Result?
While my friends say its got more, as a driver the torque delivery is smooth so if there is extra under 4000rpm its not noticeable. Its feels about the same as a blacktop/silvertop setup I had before.
The exhaust in the lower RPM sounds deeper.
VVT is more noticeable, both in when its cold and doesn't happen and when its up to temp and is activated.

The best part is this.
Everyone who has experienced going from a stock exhaust to a bigger one with headers will notice the 5000rpm rush. It is short lived, usually over by 6000rpm leaving the last 2000rpm run to rev cut a display of 4AGE Symphony Orchestra and a gradual decline in accelerating urge. This is no more evident in 3rd gear on the drag strip where the run to the line is a battle of either hitting rev cut or crossing the line.

These cams now make that 5000rpm a zone where in the dry will chirp the tyres.
The same 5000rpm in 2nd gear with a wet road will break traction and freely run to rev cut.
Passing a truck and trailer under full throttle 3rd gear from 90km/h will see 140km/h by the time the cab is being passed. And when I say pass, that's from 90km/h stable following 2 sec behind.
With these cams, the rush at 5000rpm builds and holds all the way to rev cut.
These cams love the cold. Cold night air and Gull 98 E10 lift the cars performance that little bit more.

At $400, it is a real bang for your buck combo that works well with my setup.
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Re: 4AGE 20V Performance - What have you got?

Postby solitaire » Fri Nov 06, 2015 8:06 pm

nice writeup!
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Re: 4AGE 20V Performance - What have you got?

Postby Flannelman » Thu Mar 10, 2016 9:44 pm

Image
POWER CURVE

Image
TORQUE CURVE

GREEN LINE - Stock Plenum
BROWN LINE - Home Made Extra Large Plenum

The plenum test didn't give super results as I had hoped. But, what it did show is that it has allowed more air to get into the engine. This is seen as leaning of the mixture (bottom line on both graphs) It also let the stock intake trumpets act longer, thus delivering more torque everywhere except above 8000rpm.
Ive seen a similar result with a stock plenum and someone switched to shorter alloy ram tubes.

Besides the plenum swap, the test engine is a blueprinted STOCK 20V bottom end, JUN 4.8kg flywheel, ported head, 4-2-1 FGK headers into 2 1/2 exhaust. This is still on a STOCK ECU.

NOTE - Dyno operator had a Honda B16 in earlier. Stock ECU it made 102kW. (It came in for a Link which got a jump to 110-115kW)
- The run was in 4th gear.
- I have also seen a 2ZZ powered Corolla make 100kW on the same dyno.

The dip between 4000-5500 has been able to be filled in the past with timing tweaks and removing the rear muffler. This time, timing tweaks did nothing.
It is at this point (old 89kW and this run) the power is the same.
While the exhaust setup was satisfactory at best before, it now highlights that something needs to be done to lift the mid range. At present, the size is not the problem but the length of the collector. Running from the steering rack to the rear muffler cavity is and extremely long collector length. While this length may produce a wave frequency to help in the lower and upper RPM, it hurts the mid range.

My next course of action (to prove or disprove that it the exhaust causing this mid range dip) I need to alter the exhaust by shortening the collector to a frequency that helps more in the mid range.
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Re: 4AGE 20V Performance - What have you got?

Postby touge_ae101 » Fri Mar 11, 2016 1:47 pm

Isn't an aftermarket ecu the next move? Any of your theories will change drastically once you optimise the ignition timing and fuel through a link.

Exhaust does make a good difference and you've highlighted a few things which I know work but understanding why they work is all to do with timing of valves opening and pulses created by the ignition timing. Which isn't going to really give you any gain with the stock ecu - once a programmable ecu is in place there will be big gains to be made.

If you really want to know what to do read some old books on tuning motorcycles. Some old guys figured all this out AGES ago. The theory is all the same and they tried multiple configurations
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Re: 4AGE 20V Performance - What have you got?

Postby Flannelman » Fri Mar 11, 2016 6:47 pm

touge_ae101 wrote: understanding why they work is all to do with timing of valves opening and pulses created by the ignition timing.


A better way to put it would be understanding the pulses created by the intake/exhaust lengths, cam timing and compression.

There is only so much a Link can tune out. If the mechanics of the engine are wrong, no ECU is ever going to be able to tune it out.
Evidence of this was seeing a 1JZ with "work done to it" make 250kW@15psi with a small turbo. This turbo was changed to a larger one. The result was not what was wanted. Same 250kW but on 16psi. This shows that with an increase in boost with no increase in power there is a restriction somewhere between the compressor and exhaust pipe exit. The G4 setup was altered in ignition timing and fueling to match the new turbo - lifting mid range and reducing lag - but did not change the fact that this motor could not process anymore air to produce more power.

All a Link would let me do is get timing perfect for each load point available resulting in a far more responsive car, but no more powerful. It would also allow for lifting the factory rev cut. But, as power is starting to slow above 6500 trying to chase anything more at present is silly. A Link is more of a Want, than a Need.

Another point I would like to make is seeing a stock motor Blacktop have a Link installed and make 95kW on the same dyno. $3000 for 10-12kW increase. (DIY for $1600)
I managed to go from 89 to 99kW for $400.

Ive had the debate on here of "if you have no money, why bother" conversation. This is why I bother. You don't need thousands of dollars to make power, it just makes the process faster!

To keep Toyspeeders amused, after I am happy with the exhaust, my next pursuit is testing the statement of Swirl V Tumble. Surprisingly this can be created with a cam change.

After this, I will modify a head to complement the cam and add the much needed compression for a real boost in NA torque. All while using the stock ECU.

I may even throw in a new manifold, just because I get bored easy.

After ALL this is done, then, and only then I will consider using a Link. This way, the ECU is tested to its maximum and a true number of how much the stock ECU holds back the engine. Why? Because everyone seems hell bent on this mystery of the stock ECU is the worse thing ever, but no one has ever done the work to prove it. And, for some reason, this grinds many peoples gears on here.
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Re: 4AGE 20V Performance - What have you got?

Postby touge_ae101 » Fri Mar 11, 2016 9:52 pm

Prepare to be disappointed by pretty much the same result.
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Re: 4AGE 20V Performance - What have you got?

Postby Flannelman » Tue Jul 04, 2017 9:19 pm

Tumble or Swirl?

My experiment was to grid a camshaft with extra duration on one lobe resulting in one side intake valve left open to hopefully "ram charge" the cylinder and induce more swirl.

Did it work?

NO!

Image
(4th Gear, DynoDynamics rolling road)

However keyboard warriors, note something else.
That's right. The Orange line represents a test using an MSD system. These parts I have had sitting on a V8 project for years so decided to put to use and see if upgrading the ignition (even at this level of power) would give any change. The distributor, rotor and leads (exception of the king lead to MSD) were all left old, used and very standard.
The diverging lines say to me that more spark energy delivers in a power increase. Even if its only small (2% increase).
Your choice if you want to do the same.

Little to say this cam has been filed away for future testing. The original "100kW" cam was reinstalled, and drag raced the following day.
I won my street class, quickest 200m time of 10.03sec, 0.4sec better that I got 8 years ago.
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