How to identify a Celica ST185 Group A

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Postby RunningRich » Thu Jan 06, 2005 8:01 am

This has been covered in detail *many* times before. A search will bring up the info.

There is no such thing as a Spec A GT-Four. Stop making things up!

The ST185 models are:

ST185 GT-Four
ST185 GT-Four Rally
ST185 GT-Four A
ST185 GT-Four RC
ST185 GT-Four Carlos Sainz
ST185 GT-Four Group A Rallye

No "spec", no "type", no "evo".
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Postby Mr Revhead » Thu Jan 06, 2005 9:32 am

spec a, type a, same thing you know what i mean!

some of those names you use are the same cars, just different markets.
there really only 3 different versions of the jdm cars. and the export ones differ minutly ,if at all
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Postby gdsup » Thu Jan 06, 2005 10:12 am

DeeCee wrote: the technicians didn't want to touch the engine initially because apparently it was a group A. They flew some guy down from Auckland to work on the engine. Lightened fly wheels and other trick bits in the engine bay (don't ask me what exactly - i plan to find out very soon!!))



I thought toyota in lower hutt had a motec system exhaust speacialist in house these days? :lol:
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Postby RunningRich » Thu Jan 06, 2005 10:13 am

Wrong. There are 4 JDM cars, the normal body, the Rally, the GT-Four A widebody and the RC.


The export ones are different. Different AC for a start, different engine outputs and various other specs.
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Postby Mr Revhead » Thu Jan 06, 2005 10:21 am

what is this "rally" u speak of?

yup yup sorry 4

normal body
wide body normal gt4
gt4 rc (wide)
gt4 a (wide)
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Postby Malcolm » Thu Jan 06, 2005 4:52 pm

BR0Z wrote:Hi just my 2cents worth.

I thought to export version of the JDM RC was the Groupe A not Group A, the export version to NZ & Australia also had the 260kph speedo.

Cheers, Mark

No, the Australian version was Group A Rallye, the European version was CS (Carlos Sainz), and AFAIK all export Celicas had 260kmh speedo's.
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Postby nobody » Thu Jan 06, 2005 5:27 pm

Mr Revhead wrote:what is this "rally" u speak of?

yup yup sorry 4

normal body
wide body normal gt4
gt4 rc (wide)
gt4 a (wide)


Isn't the wide body normal gt4 the same as the gt4 a ?

From what I know and have read on the net the 4 JDM GT-Four models are:

GT-Four - Normal Body
GT-Four A - Widebody (after the facelift in 1991 all GT-Fours were widebody so the A was dropped)
GT-FourRC - Widebody AKA GT-FourCS and GT-Four Group A Rallye
GT-Four Rally - Rare-ish with no extras made for those who want to buy a car to race/rally

Edit: link with more info: http://www.speedtoys.com/lists/html/gt4/2000/msg04294.html
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Postby Scottie » Thu Jan 06, 2005 7:29 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think this is how it goes

Pre-facelift

JDM ST185 GT-Four (normal body)
JDM ST185 GT-Four Rally (normal body) manual windows etc
JDM ST185 GT-FourA (wide body)

Facelift

JDM ST185 GT-Four (wide body)
Export ST185 GT-Four (wide body)

1-5000 GT-Four (Steel CT26, WTA intercooler, different gearbox etc)

ST185 GT-Four RC (JDM, wide body)
ST185 GT-Four Carlos Sainz (UK market, wide body)
ST185 GT-Four Group A Rallye (Aus market, wide body)

So the wide body pre-facelift GT-FourA is the same as the facelift normal GT-Four mechanically speaking? What sort of CT26 did the have (steel or ceramic)? Do they have the same larger single piston brakes as the facelift?

If it’s a GT-FourA it will have the old style tail lights. As opposed to the facelift ones with the dark outline.
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Postby DeeCee » Thu Jan 06, 2005 7:44 pm

RunningRich - i was being mildly sarcastic

its good to finally collect the information in one thread - searchs bring up scattered knowledge, not collated knowledge

this sorts it out - easy peasy...
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Postby Malcolm » Fri Jan 07, 2005 8:44 am

the other difference on the GT-Four Rally (the no frills, lightweight model), other than the manual windows etc was that they came with a close ratio gearbox, E154F? I think that's what its called.
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Postby RunningRich » Fri Jan 07, 2005 9:54 am

DeeCee wrote:RunningRich - i was being mildly sarcastic


I know ;-)

E154F is the ST205 BTW. GT-Four Rally is the E152F.
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Postby Lanius » Tue Apr 05, 2005 9:27 am

Hi guys, sorry to dredge up such an old thread, but have been offered a front cut from what is supposedly a Carlos Sainz version GT-Four, and am hoping to swap the engine and gbox over to my GT-Four, instead of getting my engine rebuilt (viewtopic.php?t=29679).

Couple of questions; the CS version GT Four comes with a standard ceramic CT26? Standard gearbox? Any difference in fuel maps? Is the CS version just the European market release of the Group A GT-Four?

Confirmation on these points would be great, thx! :)
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Postby BR0Z » Tue Apr 05, 2005 1:09 pm

Hi

Are you sure it's a CS & not a RC, as the CS was for Europe? :?

Either way the CS is the same as the RC(Japan) & GroupA Rallye(Aust/NZ) & the turbo has a steel wheel not a ceramic wheel, E151F(?) gearbox, WTA IC, Different ECU with higher boost cut (17psi).

Cheers, Mark
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Postby Lanius » Tue Apr 05, 2005 1:52 pm

Awesome, thx man ... can you tell me the difference between the E151F and the standard box? I'm assuming they've just called it the CS version, but meant the RC :wink:

If it does come with the WTA intercooler, I'm thinking I might very well take it!

Thanks for the info broz :D
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Postby BR0Z » Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:40 pm

Hi Again

Different ratios (same as E50F2)
1st 3.583, 2nd 2.045, 3rd 1.333, 4th .972, 5th .731, Rev 3.545 &
final drive ratio 3.933.

Go for it. :D

Cheers, Mark
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Postby Lanius » Tue Apr 05, 2005 5:44 pm

You, sir, are a scholar and a gentleman :D
Thanks for the info!

I've spoken with the guy in question, and it sounds like a damn good deal ... getting the engine, turbo (steel shaft CT26), gearbox and WTA intercooler etc for $2700 (including GST and 3 month warrantee). That also allows me to sell the gearbox, engine (whats left of it), ecu, fmic + piping etc from my car, and recover some of the costs.

The ECU and loom will cost extra unfortunately, but I'm not sure if it will be essential. Anyone got any experience working with the different ECUs in different models of GT-Four? Can anyone tell me the differences between a standard and RC version ECU (if there are any differences)? I've been told the only difference is the boost cut is at 17psi instead of 16psi ...

Think this will be the way I'm gonna go for sure. If anyone wants to buy a g/box (with crunchy second), fmic + piping, and a 3SGTE that needs rebuilding, keep an eye out in the For Sale section :D
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Postby BR0Z » Tue Apr 05, 2005 6:22 pm

Hi Bruce

Re the std GTFour ECU I'm sure the boost cut is less than 16psi, if you want more info I suggest you pm 'RunningRich' (Richard Doig) as he know's a lot about them.
$2700 does sound a good deal. - how much extra for the ECU?

Cheers, Mark

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Postby Lanius » Wed Apr 06, 2005 7:58 am

The guy wants $350 for the ECU, because he reckons he can sell it seperately for $450, and the loom for $550! :?

Personally I would have thought that the ECU and loom would be part and parcel of the "front cut" he advertised, but *shrug*, you know the saying "Beggars can't be choosers" :roll:
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Postby Twolitre » Wed Apr 06, 2005 10:54 am

If he reckons he can sell a loom and ecu for $1K then I can sell ice to eskimos!
It'll run mint on your stock loom and ecu but I'd try and just buy the engine and turbo and find an st205 box because you'll regret the sluggish final drive of the RC box.
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Postby Lanius » Wed Apr 06, 2005 11:17 am

Yeh, thats pretty much the argument I was going to use with him if I needed the ECU / loom. From what I've been told (thx again Twolitre), I'd be better off with my existing ECU anyway, which means I don't need the loom after all :wink:

I'd LOVE to get an ST205 box to go with the new engine, but I just can't afford it at the moment. From the sounds of things, the RC box is stronger than the standard ST185 box anyway ...

From http://gtfour.supras.org.nz
The RC was also fitted with a new gearbox, the E151F (although this was also fitted to later models). This gearbox has triple cone synchros on second and dual cone on third to help reduce the synchro graunch problems all Toyotas suffer from. It also has two synchro rings on fifth, Teflon coated shift forks and several other improvements. It came with the 3.933 diff ratio, so if top speed is not an issue converting to the 4.285 ratio is one of the best mods you can do. BTW, this gearbox bolts straight into any ST165 or ST185.

I'm not terribly worried about top speed (I only go 100kph anyway ... honest :!: ), so the taller final gear doesn't present a big problem. My biggest anxiety is going back to a standard steel shaft CT26 as opposed to my blown CT26/TO4e. Even though my old turbo was laggy, it was awesome when it come into full bloom 8O :D

Still saving to visit Mr Revhead with some dollars for a "CT20b"
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