16v vs 20v

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16v vs 20v

Postby levin_it_large » Mon May 26, 2003 7:55 pm

how much diff is there between a 20v and 16v levin

some guy said 2 me that 16v have more performance and more potential, i just can't c y
4 valves per cylinder would do a bit more and more potential i would have thought

All u tech ppl wot are the figures :?: :?:
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Postby Rollin' » Mon May 26, 2003 9:31 pm

i heard the same too, that a WORKED 16v is more powerful than a 20v.

also, ther 20v has the power on paper, but on the track the power seems to dissapear.

also my 16v blutop 16.4 1/4 mile
toms old 20v in AE101 16.5 1/4 mile

so very simalar, both have only intake and sum exhaust upgrade

in the end it will come down to the driver.

another note, the supercharged engines were kept at 16v, so that must say something..
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Postby RedMist » Mon May 26, 2003 9:35 pm

Bluetop 16 valve 173 bhp at the wheels. With possibly another 10-15 bhp in development yet to be realized.
My standard 20 valve blacktop was 126bhp at the wheels (different dyno)
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Postby Bazda » Mon May 26, 2003 10:24 pm

is your 16v worked cos 173bhp at the wheels is quite a bis considering the Drincro brothers with their hard out worked 4age 16v spent 10s of thousands on it got 230hp at the fly wheel. that wheel dyno must of been very incorrect
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Bluetop

Postby SurfWagon » Mon May 26, 2003 10:40 pm

Hello



For my own interest , what sort of mods apart from Exhuast and aftermarket airfilters can get B16A power.

I'm wondering whether Kelford's Cams , new lighter shim buckets and adjustable cam gears can achieve that sorta of power.


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Postby Adydas » Mon May 26, 2003 11:37 pm

how much diff is there between a 20v and 16v levin
4 valves..?

erm i think 16 v is better

20v seemed like a design jsut to be differnt..OH look 4 xtra valves.. u should buy one.. OHH OK ill buy 2 of thse fab cars.. woooOOo

Hmm..

other than that i dont care..

im more curious about surfwagons post? why not ask in a honda place if its a honda engine? or start your own thred.. rather than randomly bastardiseing sumone elses?
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Postby Wildcard » Tue May 27, 2003 12:18 am

Adydas wrote:im more curious about surfwagons post? why not ask in a honda place if its a honda engine? or start your own thred.. rather than randomly bastardiseing sumone elses?


Or you could learn to read english.....
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Postby strap-on » Tue May 27, 2003 10:27 am

Wildcard wrote:
Adydas wrote:im more curious about surfwagons post? why not ask in a honda place if its a honda engine? or start your own thred.. rather than randomly bastardiseing sumone elses?


Or you could learn to read english.....


or mayb he was asking how to get the same amount of power asa b16a out of a 4age, in order to show those honda drivers whos boss :twisted:
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Hmmm

Postby SurfWagon » Tue May 27, 2003 11:12 am

Yes,


My intention for my post was to ask you guys what can be done to make a 16V superior to a Honda B16A Vtec engine in terms of power.


For Adydas's response I think it is very unlikely that a Honda web site would give me such information modifying a Toyota 4age Engine to beat their own kind.


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Postby mister2 » Tue May 27, 2003 1:24 pm

ummm i think you will find that (if any research was actually done, rather than just 'well i reckon...') 20v's produce more torque due to having better flow at low lifts (when the circumference is more important). there is an interesting SAE article on 5 valve heads, done by a yamaha engineer, which gives a good comparison. ive posted on this before. turns out, the 5v canes the 4v for the same bore (which limits valve size).

i have also 'heard' (actually, only from club4ag.com) so i dont know whether this is true, but the formula 20v class in japan uses 255hp engines. look up the story about the guy who spent $100k on his ae86. this compares to 240hp from a fully worked formula atlantic motor used in the states.

i tend to lean towards the argument that the only reason you see more out of a 16v is because it is miles cheaper, and all the r&d has been done before.

*and dont get me started on vtecs*

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Postby MR2boy » Tue May 27, 2003 5:29 pm

talking about the formula atlantic engine there is a formula atlantic head etc in this weeks buy sell for $3000
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Postby Loudtoy » Tue May 27, 2003 8:11 pm

Rollin' wrote:i heard the same too, that a WORKED 16v is more powerful than a 20v.

also, ther 20v has the power on paper, but on the track the power seems to dissapear.

also my 16v blutop 16.4 1/4 mile
toms old 20v in AE101 16.5 1/4 mile

so very simalar, both have only intake and sum exhaust upgrade

in the end it will come down to the driver.

another note, the supercharged engines were kept at 16v, so that must say something..


or my silvertop has done a 15.0 1/4 mile - only pod and exhaust done! Could have been that toms old 20 valve really was old! Mind you the gtz's are only 16valve but that's probably because to get a decent semi forged piston crown without having to spend large amounts of money meant keeping with 16valves (ae92's came super charged as well remember) but if i was going boosted i would use the 20 valve head, higher overall valve diameted increases flow at all rpms but like mister 2 said the 16 valve is cheaper because it has been done many times before - and not just on toyota's cos if you think how many cars have 16 valve heads that have been modified theres a fair few and they all work on the same principle! So inmho more power possible from a 20 valve but alot more money to get it!

My intention for my post was to ask you guys what can be done to make a 16V superior to a Honda B16A Vtec engine in terms of power.


If you want to make it superior to a standard b16a it shouldn't be to hard - decent cams, a set of quad throttle bodies of a 20 valve decent exhaust and intake setup and maybe chuck some more fuel at it, or you could go turbo - depends how much money you want to spend! Either way it will be far superior to a b16a!
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Postby Bazda » Tue May 27, 2003 11:15 pm

all you need to do to a 16v red top his get your self a decent set of extractors made and change the cam timing. Does anyone know Ted Javis he has raced a corolla fxgt ae92 with red top for many many years now they even qualified for bathurst one year and they raced at bathurst with a pretty standard engine. He said he makes 145hp at the fly wheel in a light rolla so it honks pretty good. But yea next step would be cams but the class he is in they arent allowed to change cams.
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Postby DRFTIN » Tue May 27, 2003 11:23 pm

RedMist wrote:Bluetop 16 valve 173 bhp at the wheels. With possibly another 10-15 bhp in development yet to be realized.


to get that kind of power you must have spent a LOT of $$, like $10k+ i'm guessing
either that or its a really inaccurate dyno
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Postby RedMist » Tue May 27, 2003 11:38 pm

Speed costs. How fast do you want to spend?

300 degree 415 thou lift cams.
Custom developed shim under bucket
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Major head work, including reducing port size to smaller than smallport.
Forged Pistons. Gapless rings.
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20 valve ITB's. Injectors running in 20 valve manifold. Custom adaptor.
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Most certainly not a cheap engine. The dyno appears accurate, as I'm having problems getting my 4 puc clutch to hold, and it's scary fast. First outing this weekend, should be interesting challenging a 188bhp Marsh motorsport Datsun motor in a lighter car.
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Postby AE85coupe » Wed May 28, 2003 12:04 am

MR2boy wrote:talking about the formula atlantic engine there is a formula atlantic head etc in this weeks buy sell for $3000


is it $3000 for the whole engine? or just for the head? where do you get hold of these formula atlantic engines?
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Postby satchell » Wed May 28, 2003 12:07 am

sorry to post off topic.
MISTER 2 i do believe that your nsr250 will be quicker then your "in the works" turbo mobile, (unless your going to boosting some serious psi), coz your nsr will do roughly 12 sec 1/4's. unless you weigh over 100 kilos then your time'll be like 12.3 or something. according to the roughass 1/4 mile calculator.
the 1uz-fe is the OWNLY engine.
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Postby MR2boy » Wed May 28, 2003 4:55 pm

heres the details:

For Sale $3000.00 TOYOTA 4AGE
, formular atlantic head with cams, 2 sets of valves, springs and 48mm side draft manifold
22 May 2003 Canterbury
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Postby mister2 » Wed May 28, 2003 5:49 pm

sorry to post off topic.
MISTER 2 i do believe that your nsr250 will be quicker then your "in the works" turbo mobile, (unless your going to boosting some serious psi), coz your nsr will do roughly 12 sec 1/4's. unless you weigh over 100 kilos then your time'll be like 12.3 or something. according to the roughass 1/4 mile calculator.


*sigh* yeah. bikes are so much cheaper to go fast on!
thats the challenge tho... to make the mr2 faster than the nsr :D
actually, i reckon its got quite good odds... the nsr is a se model which has a really really tall 1st gear, so not so good for fast launches.

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Postby satchell » Wed May 28, 2003 8:03 pm

oh yip fair enough, ill take that as a challenge. :twisted: hehe
im planning on buying an rgv250 soon (suzuki equivalent of nsr) so well have to have a drag one day. hehe (coz i know my mates cars wont keep up) hehe.
the 1uz-fe is the OWNLY engine.
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