Fuels for Motorsport

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Postby AJD » Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:23 pm

Have been a bit of a lurker here and thought I would add something to this thread :)

The guys at Alcotane are really good and they have a great product.
Im running an Alcotane Custom Blend which is E20 and I have had some really great results out of my tune.

The Alcotane E20 I run is only around the 100-105 octane mark but my car was tuned to MBT with no detonation on 18psi. I was only held back from making more power due to my Head not being able to flow enough.

I use to have heating problems aswell on my old BP98 tune, that disappared as soon as I went on E20 due to the ethanol's dominant cooling effects.
Ethanol also brought my turbo on about 500rpm quicker than BP98 as well, due to the fact that the exhaust gases produced having a higher density.

In regards to fuel economy, it hasnt changed at all. Because I could run a leaner mixture I ended up using slightly more fuel over BP98, but the increase in power was amazing.
We gained 15% more power just by switching fuel but the biggest thing was the fact we got a more reliable engine as well, with out having to change anything with my setup.

Alcotane have a special additive they put in all there enthanol fuel which provides a longer storage life and also prevents corrosion.

Hope this helps you guys, Ill talk to the guys at alcotane and see if they can give me some info to put up here
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Postby molex » Sat Feb 06, 2010 4:15 pm

I've been doing quite a bit of reading into E85 and am pretty impressed with the results people are getting out of it, it really does require a total rethink of the tuning process and the choices made in regards to static compression, fuel supply (pumps, lines, injectors etc)

What's your application out of interest? it sounds like it turned out really well for you.

Does anybody know if there's any Auckland based suppliers for Alcotane? I personally would probably be keen on some.
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Postby Alcotane » Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:11 pm

Hey guys

I was told to have a look at the information that has been posted here and I have to say that I am extremely impressed at the accuracy. Many forums have been filled with the myths associated with ethanol fuels.

matt dunn has basically covered all the basic information with astounding accuracy; the only thing that is a bit off is the mention that E85 burns with an invisible flame. E85 will burn with a distinctive orange flame like petrol does, this is quite simply due to the 15% petrol in the blend. I have pics and vids of this and will upload as soon as I can find them.

As AJD mentioned we use an additive that is specially produced in Germany. This reduces corrosion associated with ethanol fuels by controlling the pHe level (acid strength). It also increases lubricity, therefore over comming the 2 main disadvantages of ethanol fuels.

If you would like to view some dyno sheets of vehicles running on Alcotane fuels visit http://alcotane.co.nz/?page_id=121 this is a page that i am currently in the process of putting together so please excuse the minimal amount of information currently on there.

If anyone has any questions regarding ethanol fuels or Alcotane products please feel free to ask.

molex wrote:Does anybody know if there's any Auckland based suppliers for Alcotane? I personally would probably be keen on some.


We do not currently have a retailer in Auckland, however we are happy to supply customers directly. Feel free to call on 0800 RACE FUEL (722338) to discuss if you are interested.
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Postby jakesae101 » Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:17 pm

whats the cost of buying it directly from you guys?
I appologise for my bad grammar

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Postby matt dunn » Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:21 pm

Alcotane wrote:
matt dunn has basically covered all the basic information with astounding accuracy.


Thanks, but all i have done is some cut and paste.

Most of the info i have has come to me from NZEFI in CHCH,
as Kirk there is heavily involved in the series I ran in.
7AGTE - DX20VT - viewtopic.php?t=59733
Discussion - viewtopic.php?t=59751
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Postby Alcotane » Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:30 pm

jakesae101 wrote:whats the cost of buying it directly from you guys?


We will typically still charge RRP on products when supplying direct to end users. Discounting for direct customers would probably obsolete local retailers.

20L E30 - $70
210 E30 - $700
20L E85 - $75
210L E85 - $750
20L E100 - $80
210L E100 - $800

Please keep in mind that without special storage facilities you may only legally store up to 50L of E85 or E100 and 20L of E30. If you intend to transport more than 50L of fuel by road then you will need a DG endorsement on your license and appropriate vehicle signage.

Lith wrote:We then drained the remaining 98 and pulled out the containers of Ethanol and petrol we just happened to have and mixed up a new E33 (it was easier to do accurately with the containers we had) blend to throw in the tank and proceeded to tune.


I strongly discourage the purchase of pure ethanol for blending with pump fuels that already contain ethanol. This is because the fuel may have a varying amount of ethanol, for example the data sheets for an E10 fuel will often state that the fuel contains up to 10% ethanol.

Companies use ethanol to achieve a higher octane rating while reducing refining costs and use only enough ethanol to increase the octane to the required minimum. This means that your blend may be E20 for one batch and E15 for the next and I'm sure I don't need to explain why this could be a very bad thing.


Image

Here you can see the difference between E85 and E100 when it burns. E100 on the left has a very blue, difficult to see flame while the petrol content in the E85 on the right causes it to burn with a bright orange flame.
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Postby molex » Sun Feb 07, 2010 4:20 pm

Awesome, thanks for the additional info :)

I'll definitely be giving you a call once I get the bloody car to start (intermittent ECU issue, sigh)


Approximate cost for 20L to a residential Auckland central address? Discount for volume? I'm sure there's a few people up here in Auckland who would be keen, splitting shipping cost could be a goer.
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Postby Dunny » Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:39 am

Alcotane - do you have any info or has anyone done R&D running E85 on old pushrod carb'd engines, might save me some trial and error testing?

I think among other things fuel line and carb seal parts might suffer 1st

Cheers
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Postby molex » Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:03 pm

http://www.raceone85.com/

That site is primarily about american pushrod/carbs running on E85, mostly with great success.
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Postby Alcotane » Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:50 pm

molex wrote:Approximate cost for 20L to a residential Auckland central address? Discount for volume? I'm sure there's a few people up here in Auckland who would be keen, splitting shipping cost could be a goer.


Ok, freight of 20L containers to Auckland central works out as follows, value in brackets shows the per drum freight cost.

1 - $29.00
2 - $37.00 (18.50)
4 - $56.00 (14.00)
5 - $67.00 (13.40)
8 - $81.00 (10.13)
11 - $93.00 (8.45)

Dunny wrote:Alcotane - do you have any info or has anyone done R&D running E85 on old pushrod carb'd engines, might save me some trial and error testing?


Unfortunately we have not had any results or info sent through from anyone using Alcotane products for this type of application. Having said this I have talked to many people about ethanol fuels with carb engines, including a few who have successfully run E85.

With regard to fuel lines and seals, the key thing to remember is that natural rubber is a bad idea; especially when it has previously been used with petrol. Most fuel line that is available for sale these days will be capable of handling ethanol and ethanol blends but do make sure that you ask before purchasing.

I imagine that getting the maximum benefit of the fuel in a carb application will be slightly more challenging, however, one person I spoke with claimed that he got a 7% power increase in his N/A carb V8 simply by optimizing the AFR with E85. He obtained a further 2% increase by leaning the mixture to about .9 Lambda. Although I am unsure of his test methods and their accuracy these figures appear to be realistic.

I will attempt to locate some reliable information and post it up for you to have a look through.
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Postby Dunny » Mon Feb 08, 2010 4:29 pm

Alcotane wrote:I will attempt to locate some reliable information and post it up for you to have a look through.


That would be awesome thanks, I'm eventaully going to have to do some testing myself but the more info acquired before I start may help and ensure I'm atleast prepared for what I'm getting into.

My engine is no V8, far from it infact, it's only 1290cc but I need this fuel due to very high compression, there is no cheap alternative once Avgas is no longer allowed.
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Postby AJD » Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:01 pm

Just thought I would chuck in a few opinions of my own that may help with a few issues that have been raised. :)

Earlier boost pressure. However the down side of this is that it aggravates any boost creep problems. Also for the same boost control settings there was an increase in boost (so the settings had to be decreased to achieve the same boost level)


This is due to the fact that the exhaust gases ethanol produce have a higher density. This helps with spooling time, but can cause boost creep as mentioned above. In most cases boost creep is caused by the wastegate port being too small and not allowing enough exhaust gases to bypass the turbo. So a larger wastegate should help with preventing boost creep.

Lower engine temperatures. On track testing showed the engine temps were brought right down to the thermostats temp and was almost operating too cold. We would look at either changing the low temp competition thermostat to a standard higher temp item or look at blocking of some of the air to the radiator if we were to continue with E85.


This is a bit of a touchy area as not only the running temp of water is affected, but so is the oil temp. I know of one vehicle having removed its oil cooler and changing from running 10w40 to 5w30 just to get around this. (I would suggest doing this as a last resort)
One way that should be able to help with running temp if it becomes too much of an issue, is to lean out the mixture to a point in which there is no denotation, or the risk of running to hot that its causing problems to the engine internals. This can be monitored via the EGT, but this will be put down to your tuner.

Build up of fuel in the sump and accumulation of fuel in the oil breather catch tank with E85.
E85 is less volatile than petrol meaning that it takes a higher temperature to make it evaporate. More fuel enters the sump with blow-by gases due to the fact that more is used and also under cold start and while the engine is warming up. The engine and engine oil needs to be above 78C to get the E85 to boil of and leave the sump at a reasonable rate (this is compounded by the fact that the fuel makes the engine run cooler). Also once it does leave the sump it condenses in the cooler catch can and builds up in the can.


This can be one of those undesirable effects of running ethanol, but isn’t to much of a problem if monitored. There is several ways this can be tackled, but these sometimes aren’t the best way for motorsports. One way involves using a Fuel Recovery System which forces the ethanol in the oil system to condense in a separate container which is then plumbed back in to the intake system. Other than that, the only other thing I can suggest is to just check your catch can.

Well I hope this can help people out. If there is any confusion or question just ask and ill try to help as well.
8)
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Postby scootevo » Thu Feb 11, 2010 9:59 pm

Alcotane wrote:210L E85 - $750
.


Just wondering how much different it is to the stuff available for $472 ?
Is th eadditive quite expensive?

Thx
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Postby Alcotane » Fri Feb 12, 2010 12:59 pm

Alcotane fuels are blended with the highest quality raw materials, the ethanol that we use is the highest purity available in bulk quantities and definitely not the cheapest. We use 99.8% pure ethanol despite the fact that the minimum purity of ethanol for blending with fuel under NZ Legislation is 95.6%.

Ethanol forms an azeotropic bond with water, this bond can not be broken by distillation as the boiling point of ethanol and the ethanol azeotrope are to close together. This means that you must employ special and costly procedures is you want ethanol purity above approximately 96%.

Principal ethanol suppliers in NZ provide a 96% purity option which is much cheaper to produce and to purchase as it doesn’t have to go through chemical drying processes or molecular sieves.

The water content affects the engine output and octane rating, if you think about it a 200L drum of 96% ethanol has 8 liters of water in it. I cant speak for everyone but there is no way I would throw 8 liters of water in my tank even if it meant that the fuel was cheaper.

As for the additive it is very expensive, and costs about as much to get it here from Germany as it does to buy. Having said that I believe it to be worth every cent, it almost completely removes any of the problems associated with ethanol.

Alcotane Fuels are made with quality in mind more so than price. I can assure you that the price will copme down a bit over the next few months as our volume is bringing us closer top a lower price bracket with our suppliers. Dont get to excited though, we are only talking 7-10c a litre.
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Postby scootevo » Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:03 pm

Alcotane wrote:Alcotane fuels are blended with the highest quality raw materials, the ethanol that we use is the highest purity available in bulk quantities and definitely not the cheapest. We use 99.8% pure ethanol despite the fact that the minimum purity of ethanol for blending with fuel under NZ Legislation is 95.6%.

Ethanol forms an azeotropic bond with water, this bond can not be broken by distillation as the boiling point of ethanol and the ethanol azeotrope are to close together. This means that you must employ special and costly procedures is you want ethanol purity above approximately 96%.

Principal ethanol suppliers in NZ provide a 96% purity option which is much cheaper to produce and to purchase as it doesn’t have to go through chemical drying processes or molecular sieves.

The water content affects the engine output and octane rating, if you think about it a 200L drum of 96% ethanol has 8 liters of water in it. I cant speak for everyone but there is no way I would throw 8 liters of water in my tank even if it meant that the fuel was cheaper.

As for the additive it is very expensive, and costs about as much to get it here from Germany as it does to buy. Having said that I believe it to be worth every cent, it almost completely removes any of the problems associated with ethanol.

Alcotane Fuels are made with quality in mind more so than price. I can assure you that the price will copme down a bit over the next few months as our volume is bringing us closer top a lower price bracket with our suppliers. Dont get to excited though, we are only talking 7-10c a litre.



Have received this piece of correspondence today from potential supplier?

"The ethanol used in Gull E85 is food grade ethanol, sourced from Fonterra. It has a water content of less than 0.2% when blended."
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Postby Alcotane » Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:46 pm

Hey guys and girls, as mentioned earlier in this topic we have been working on cutting our pricing a bit.

Its all still the same product but thanks to the support of our existing customers we have increased our volume so much that we have been able to make much bigger reductions than previously thought.

Also we are now providing free freight throughout the Wellington Region and will be expanding this to Manawatu, Wairarapa and Auckland over the next few months as we get the infrastructure set in place.

The new pricing is as follows.

White Label E100 20L - $75
Green Label E85 20L - $70
Orange Label E30 20L - $65
Blue Label MeOH 20L - $60


White Label E100 200L - $650
Green Label E85 200L - $600
Orange Label E30 200L - $550
Blue Label MeOH 200L - $500

As always please contact us directly for wholesale pricing or sponsorship information.

I hope that this will make things a little more affordable for those wanting to make the switch to ethanol fuels. Feel free to ask if you have any questions about running alcohol fuels.
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