New camber rules for certs

[siren676]

Wow, i can see this rule not lasting long

http://www.lvvta.org.nz/documents/infosheets/LVVTA_Info_04-2012_Suspension_Camber_Angle_Guide.pdf

[1I1]

I think it's a good idea to limit excessive camber that can be considered dangerous.

[wde_bdy]

Yeah, I questioned it on their forum. Will be interesting to see what reply I get, I just don't see it solving the problem they want it to.

Callum

[wde_bdy]

I think it's a good idea to limit excessive camber that can be considered dangerous.

What would you consider excessive on say a KE70?

Callum

[1I1]

Going off that guide the certifier has to do a road test and provided it meets the standards (comes down braking safely etc) then you can have more than half a degree of camber.

Again thats subjective to tyre width etc isn't it?

[Stott69]

I can, even tho yes I do like "stanced" cars some are just a tad over the top

[wde_bdy]

Going off that guide the certifier has to do a road test and provided it meets the standards (comes down braking safely etc) then you can have more than half a degree of camber.

Again thats subjective to tyre width etc isn't it?

No the limit is 1/2 degree more than factory tolerance, the ONLY way to go more is through Motorsport NZ. It reads a bit funny but basically within manufacturer tolerance, no issue. Within 1/2 degree road test etc. Outside that no go.

Callum

[1I1]

True, it is a bit hazzey, was going off:

Agreed negative camber maximum limits:
The resulting negative camber maximum limit that has been adopted is as follows:
A front or rear suspension system in a low volume vehicle must incorporate no more than half a degree (0 degrees 30mins/0°30’) more negative camber than that specified by the vehicle manufacturer.
In any case where a vehicle’s camber exceeds that recommended by the vehicle’s manufacturer, the LVV Certifier must ensure that the requirements contained in 2.2(2)(a), 2.3(8), and 2.4(1) (referred to earlier in this LVVTA Information Sheet) of the LVVTA suspension standard have been met. The LVV Certifier must also take extra care in ensuring that the vehicle is safe and fit for purpose, based upon the following factors:
 tyre width – the effects of added negative camber are more pronounced when wide, low-profile tyres are fitted; and
 road and brake performance test results; and
 the vehicle manufacturer’s wheel alignment specifications.

[iOnic]

I know they're trying to avoid shit like this:



But the angles they're suggesting are what is suitable for a car with unmodified suspension geometry/wheel and tyre sizing etc which kinda defeats the purpose of going for certification. Keen to see where it goes I guess.

[wde_bdy]

Yep and that should never pass anyway. Simple rule -
- SAKT OWT Beemer FAIL
- Sakt Owt Merc FAIL
- Nissan looking like you broke something FAIL
- Cool Toyota with reasonable level of camber that drives sweet PASS
How hard can it be?

Callum

[strx7]

About time!!!! Hurray, pop the bubbley, lets have a celebration.

I pass a S15 on the way to or from work a couple of times a week which i would say is running 10-15 degrees of camber.

[phoenix]

I pass a S15 on the way to or from work a couple of times a week which i would say is running 10-15 degrees of camber.

It's probably not running 10 degrees of negative camber, but 350 degrees of positive camber - therefore cert rule does not apply

[tsoob]

I will be talking to LVV today re the tyre strech thing and will also talk about this.

will post back

[MAC_HATER]

i think a step in this direction is great - large amounts of negative camber works fine for a race car - but on a phat ceffy doing laps on a tuesday afternoon? not so much

the other troubling thing is when some flatpeakers (awesome word) go for the "max camber" look on the cheap - its usually done by lowing the car far too much using dubious methods like cutting the springs - usually to the point the car is nearly on or is on its bumpstops (is that the correct word? eh) and you watch them drive about flailing at the wheel as they hit a manhole cover and the car trys to violently bump steer into the other lane - and then the car loses traction because oly 5-10% of the tyre tread is actually on the road and they either spin out cause its wet or they get a scare of a tank slapper if its dry - but $&#$% that saftey shit - as long as the car looks maaaaaad dope!

[GTTpower]

I will be talking to LVV today re the tyre strech thing and will also talk about this.

will post back

Good man

[wde_bdy]

Went and saw my wheel alignment guy today, couple of specs that may be of interest -
KP61 Starlet - standard min camber - 0 degrees
KE70 Corolla - standard min camber - 0.67 degrees positive
AE86 Corolla - standard min camber - 0.17 degrees negative
So I'm pretty screwed on my cars.

Callum

[B_giB]

I remember doing a few wheel alignments on some Lexus, cant remember the model, an older one, that didn't have any camber tolerance at all. So that will be a hard vehicle to get certed...

[siren676]

Lets hope they withdraw the decision and only apply it to cars owned by flatpeakers

[tsoob]

Well, I spent about 45 mins on the phone.

This is really going to just cause a whole lot more 'illegal' cars on the road.

LVV's position is that they are all about safety, they say that when the camber thing was looked at it was consulted with race car drivers and that that is all they think is safe.

We covered a lot of things, as it stands right now you are allowed to fit wheels and tyres to a vehicle so as long as it wont increase the original tack width by more than 25mm and has the same rolling diameter. BUT as soon as you have an item that requires certification you then have to fit according to their tyre charts and now their camber charts.

To be honest after talking with this guy for a while, the way the conversation went these guys are really OTT with their 'safety' aspects. They consult with certain companies but are pretty picky about who they use.

I asked them if they had consulted with anyone in the mag and tyre industry, and also asked about the mag n turbo stores (after all 14 across the country you would think that they know something) The answer was no we don't the work that comes from them is terrible (which I disagree with completely, they do a lot of good work and know their stuff)

After taking to them I had the director of Autolign NZ here, and he is also dealing with the very same people at the moment to get the TEIN brand of coilovers through their stringent processes, these guys are second guessing (assuming they know more than the manufacturers) even good quality JAPANESE brands now.

In all honesty there is nothing that can really be done to make changes, as they are setting their own agenda and thats all it comes down to.

Any how the conversation was not a total waste of time, as its now clear to me that the only way to get a car certed now is to make sure its within their guidelines, (so we will advise all our customers of what the exact laws are and if they want to go out side of that then its on the customer not us) At the end of the day 1000's more cars will be going un certed.

With regard to the certifying process, they are not interested in any other system, I did suggest a type of credit card (with the chip) that they could use rather than the costly cert's that are currently being made, this is not really of interest to them due to 'cost's'

The reality is that these guys work for the government, so they are thinking about 2 things all the time, no bad press and keeping their jobs. And that is it my friends.

Good luck, if anyone wants to know more let me know ill do my best to get the questions answered.

[Mr Revhead]

Mag and turbo know things