shitty way to lose a young life,

[Timmo]

Hold up, if NZ had decent roads, we wouldn't need to worry about out suspension being "too stiff". Back in my younger days I drove around in cars with NO springs, idiotic sure, but I never once had a problem with drifting into families.

Suspension CAN be too hard for the street. I learnt this the hard way then my mates boss took me for a ride in his Evo 8 track car, we hit a fairly large bump in the road mid corner, he lost it, and I ended up with a broken ankle & a bleeding nose. Yet my car on TRD adjustibles set almost to their hardest gets through that corner at that speed fine.

If NZ roads were as good as Germany's, I think the road toll would be alot lower.

At the end of the day, it was this guys actions, and his alone that caused this incident, and he will have to live with the fact for the rest of his life.

Err....how could the road have been any better in this instance? Barriers? 100 foot wide? Big signs saying "Don't boot it around this corner you idiot"?

[Chelles]

It’s not all about the condition of the road. It’s more about the ability of the driver to make the decision on how they should drive on a piece of road and their skills (or lack thereof) to handle the road, the car and the conditions.

I don't think roads cause accidents, I think human beings making 'decisions' basic on their skill level and their life experience cause accidents. After all a bit of road just lies there doing nothing but deteriorating and waiting for a human being to either maintain it or drive on it.


Chelles

[sergei]

Hold up, if NZ had decent roads, we wouldn't need to worry about out suspension being "too stiff". Back in my younger days I drove around in cars with NO springs, idiotic sure, but I never once had a problem with drifting into families.

Suspension CAN be too hard for the street. I learnt this the hard way then my mates boss took me for a ride in his Evo 8 track car, we hit a fairly large bump in the road mid corner, he lost it, and I ended up with a broken ankle & a bleeding nose. Yet my car on TRD adjustibles set almost to their hardest gets through that corner at that speed fine.

If NZ roads were as good as Germany's, I think the road toll would be alot lower.

At the end of the day, it was this guys actions, and his alone that caused this incident, and he will have to live with the fact for the rest of his life.

Load of BS.
How do you know the roads are good in Europe? Have you been there?
Roads in NZ aren't bad. Of course there are some places, but FFS DRIVE TO THE CONDITIONS!!!!

You know if you compare autobahn to motorway, our motorways aren't too bad. If you compare rural German roads to NZ, they are same as here. Don't compare autobahn to NZ rural road ffs.

If your car is unsuitable for road (be that too hard suspension, or slicks in wet conditions), it is unsuitable and no argument. Don't be a moron and put race suspension and then complain about NZ roads.

What is next on the menu? Slicks are too slippery in wet?
"OMG NZ roads are so bad because it is raining over here too much. But, but, but in (insert some dry country) it never rains!"

[FANGIN]

NZ roads are shit. both in the design & construction of them. Next time you're driving down the road, take a good look at the wear groves in the hotmix / volcanic chip, and look at all the little patches here & there that have been resealed because of a pothole and haven't been finished to the existing surface correctly.

It's also the design of the roads that is a factor. The main highway in the country is down to two lanes at some times with nowhere to pass for kilometers.

My last post was over simplified, but I think you get the idea of what I'm trying to say.

[coupekiwi]

Its got nothing to do with suspension, media, police, roads or anything else.

I could drive round in a high power FR car with the hardest coilovers you can buy, on space savers, in the wet for a year and not spin out.

It's the guys fault for going/accelerating too fast. Unfortunately he did not have the skills to fix what he had started and subsequently crashed.

His actions are the only thing to blame.

The fact that he had coilovers only brings down the threshold limit of how much of a dick he has to be to loose control.

Yeah yeah you could do a whole lot of stuff to prevent it but at the end of the day, the guy was either stupid enough to try go fast round a corner or was not thinking properly. It's his fault.

In saying that a hefty prison sentence is not what he needs. But thats another debate.

[sergei]

NZ roads are shit. both in the design & construction of them. Next time you're driving down the road, take a good look at the wear groves in the hotmix / volcanic chip, and look at all the little patches here & there that have been resealed because of a pothole and haven't been finished to the existing surface correctly.

It's also the design of the roads that is a factor. The main highway in the country is down to two lanes at some times with nowhere to pass for kilometers.

My last post was over simplified, but I think you get the idea of what I'm trying to say.

Even so, for 4 something million people for such huge area, you are demanding too much. Be happy with roads we have here. For what is worth, I had no problem driving all over NZ (I have been from Cape Reigna to Bluff, West and East coast on both islands, and Only region I missed is Arthur Pass and Nelson, which I will cover in next holiday). In fact I believe NZ roads are awesome, and perhaps if every one would get out more out of their normal driving area they would become better drivers.

[S T E A L T H]

Load of BS.
How do you know the roads are good in Europe? Have you been there?
Roads in NZ aren't bad. Of course there are some places, but FFS DRIVE TO THE CONDITIONS!!!!

Nothing to do with the original topic...but what the hell.

You know if you compare autobahn to motorway, our motorways aren't too bad. If you compare rural German roads to NZ, they are same as here. Don't compare autobahn to NZ rural road ffs.

Our motorways? you mean the overloaded, under-resourced, 50-years behind schedule Auckland system? (cause that's pretty much it, as far as "motorways" go in NZ. I'm not aware of anything even remotely comparable to even a typical british dual carriageway anywhere outside of urban area limits in NZ.

FFS we only just got the last bit of SH1 sealed a short while ago.

Our shocking truck accident fatality rate attests to the fact the the roads are not fit for the purpose.

If your car is unsuitable for road (be that too hard suspension, or slicks in wet conditions), it is unsuitable and no argument. Don't be a moron and put race suspension and then complain about NZ roads.

Can't argue with that.

What is next on the menu? Slicks are too slippery in wet?
"OMG NZ roads are so bad because it is raining over here too much. But, but, but in (insert some dry country) it never rains!"

I'm pretty certain it rains everywhere, the difference is a decent downpour (of which there are dozens every year) wouldn't result in multiple state highway closures and complete chaos if the roads were up to the task

[RedMist]

Have any of these people that are complaining about NZ roads been anywhere other than NZ?
I seriously believe that you should have a comparitive before you whine about NZ roads.

I wholeheartedly agree with Sergei. DRIVE TO THE CONDITIONS. If they fixed all your whines you'll compain that there are corners on the roads, then it'll be staights that cause accidents as people loose concentration. It's simple DRIVE TO THE CONDITIONS.

I also don't understand this attitude of modifying your car purposely NOT to suit the surface you encounter. Spring rate, damping rate, castor, ackerman, scrub, bump steer, KPI... oh? Do you understand any of those critical suspension settings? Do you know what you are changing when you lower your car? Do you even know why the manufacturer set the car up at that ride height to begin with?

It's like going to the $2 shop and asking them to replace your heart valve. You know it's shyte, you know it'll break, you know it doesn't perform as it should, you know it's endangering your life ... but it does have a cool little blinking LED that you can see in your chest cavity..... Cool.

In the instance stated I don't know if he would have lost traction or not given stock suspension. All I know is that the modification almost certainly had an adverse effect as to how much traction he had.

[S T E A L T H]

Have any of these people that are complaining about NZ roads been anywhere other than NZ?

Yes.

If they fixed all your whines you'll compain that there are corners on the roads, then it'll be staights that cause accidents as people loose concentration.

Sarcasm duly noted ( I hope that was it, otherwise the statement is plain ridiculous)

DRIVE TO THE CONDITIONS.

Obviously.
Doesn't hurt to improve the conditions though does it. If all the roads were loose chip seal, you still have to drive to the conditions. And when people crash and f%ck themselves up you can blame driver error, but also consider the fact that if the roads were sealed, people would be able to travel faster with less accidents.

Might be oversimplyfying it but road safety comes down to 3 things
1) Driver (skill of the average driver)
2) Vehicle (age and mechanical condition of the fleet)
3) Environment (road conditions)

Really we aren't doing too well here in NZ on any of those.

[shihad]

hay stealth

got any viable proposals to improve the terrible roads you speck of?

its all good to complain apart about how terrible they are but wheres this money coming from to upgrade all of our roads? and if your not happy with the quality of some roads that are all ready there are you not happy with the standards?

are you aware of how expensive/difficult it can be for some regions to get the highest quality of materials to make these roads to the highest standards?

ever think that some of nz's terrain is not exactly prime conditions for making roads?

[iOnic]

NZ has good roads - they're not perfect but they're certainly in better condition than a lot of countries. Quit complaining about something that's not a major problem. You wouldn't be jumping for joy if the government decided to increase taxes so that they could have the same budget for road works as the UK would you?

[RedMist]

Might be oversimplyfying it but road safety comes down to 3 things
1) Driver (skill of the average driver)
2) Vehicle (age and mechanical condition of the fleet)
3) Environment (road conditions)

Really we aren't doing too well here in NZ on any of those.

Every one of those things are the responsibilty of the driver.

It's more...
1. The driver recognising thier skill and compensating as such. I agree that in NZ we seem to have a plethora of men who believe that they are invincable and that they can make cars do something beyond the laws of physics. Thier understanding of car control is limited at best and we seem to have a society that promotes it.
2. The driver being responsible for thier own vehicle and ensuring it's fit for the road. At the end of the day, unless you are getting WOF every single journey it is YOUR responsibility to ensure YOUR car is up to standard.
3. The driver driving to the conditions.

[RedMist]

Sarcasm duly noted ( I hope that was it, otherwise the statement is plain ridiculous)

No sarcasm. People complained about roads much as you are doing 20,50, 100 years ago. What do you think those people would say about our modern roading?
I'm also a great believer that straight roads kill. Much is many european countries think the same. They purposely put corners in roads in order to keep people attentive and save lives.

I suggest that rather than making broad sweeping statements that others arguments are rediculous you try and make a valid rebuttal. But unfortunately I don't believe that to be possible in your case.

[Mr Revhead]

Stealth, from what I recall about the last thing I read about truck crash statistics it was the cars fault. Thingslike crossing the centre lines etc. Nothnig at all to do with roads.

[S T E A L T H]

hay stealth

got any viable proposals to improve the terrible roads you speck of?

Viable proposals? Allocate a larger portion of spending towards completing the Auckland motorway network (as first seen in the 1955 Master Transportation Plan) and improving the nationwide highway system.

its all good to complain apart about how terrible they are but wheres this money coming from to upgrade all of our roads? and if your not happy with the quality of some roads that are all ready there are you not happy with the standards?

are you aware of how expensive/difficult it can be for some regions to get the highest quality of materials to make these roads to the highest standards

I don't believe this to be a valid excuse for the fact that its taken until April 2010 to seal the final stretch of our main national highway.

I know for a fact that some of NZ's largest and most experienced civil engineering firms are doing far more complex projects overseas where governments appreciate the importance of having a comrehensive and modern roading system.
If you believe NZ's highway network is adequate for what's demanded of it, once again I suggest you research crash statistics for heavy trucks.

NZ has good roads - they're not perfect but they're certainly in better condition than a lot of countries. Quit complaining about something that's not a major problem. You wouldn't be jumping for joy if the government decided to increase taxes so that they could have the same budget for road works as the UK would you?

In the perfect world I would prefer existing tax revenue to be re-distributed to allow a far larger percentage to be spent on roading, however I welcome widespread introduction of toll roads.

[S T E A L T H]

Every one of those things are the responsibilty of the driver.

It's more...
1. The driver recognising thier skill and compensating as such. I agree that in NZ we seem to have a plethora of men who believe that they are invincable and that they can make cars do something beyond the laws of physics. Thier understanding of car control is limited at best and we seem to have a society that promotes it.
2. The driver being responsible for thier own vehicle and ensuring it's fit for the road. At the end of the day, unless you are getting WOF every single journey it is YOUR responsibility to ensure YOUR car is up to standard.
3. The driver driving to the conditions.

1) Agreed.
2) Point missed. The average age and condition of a car on NZ roads is older and poorer than pretty much everywhere in the developed world. That is the result of bad decisions by lawmakers and to some extent the "she'll be right atttitude"
Net result is an average driver in an average car in, say, Spain is less likely to die in a car crash than a kiwi.
3)Im not arguing against driving to conditions - but I fail to see how anyone can argue against improving the conditions.

[Mr Revhead]

Other than some congestion in some areas. The actual phyisical conditon of our roads is fine.
I've said it before, and I will say it again. I have NEVER had a road try and kill me.
Other people, livestock and even a tree.... yes, but never the road.

[S T E A L T H]

Sarcasm duly noted ( I hope that was it, otherwise the statement is plain ridiculous)

No sarcasm. People complained about roads much as you are doing 20,50, 100 years ago. What do you think those people would say about our modern roading?
I'm also a great believer that straight roads kill. Much is many european countries think the same. They purposely put corners in roads in order to keep people attentive and save lives.

I suggest that rather than making broad sweeping statements that others arguments are rediculous you try and make a valid rebuttal. But unfortunately I don't believe that to be possible in your case.

I'm pretty sure I wouldnt be complaining if there was a dual carriageway from Auckland to Wellington. Straight, with corners or otherwise. Neither would any other sane person I know. If you want a more exciting journey you can go along the back roads and have your fun.
Last time I drove in Europe perpendicular rumble strips was the most common tool I saw used to keep people alert.

[S T E A L T H]

Stealth, from what I recall about the last thing I read about truck crash statistics it was the cars fault. Thingslike crossing the centre lines etc.

dead right.

http://www.transport.govt.nz/research/Documents/Trucks_2009.pdf

Nothnig at all to do with roads

I wouldn't be so certain of that. Obviously in any given accident situation a poor call is made by one of the drivers that resulted in it - however on better roads the situation wouldn't have arisen at all. Driven over Mt.Messenger lately?
I'd put it to you that if there was a four- lane dual carriage way from Whangarei to Invercargill , the number of deaths resulting from truck crashes will be at 1/3rd of where they are now.

[Mr Revhead]

Band aid.
Teach people to drive cars and you will also lower the road toll dramatically.
Cheaper than building massive roads that most areas don't acutally need and that no one can afford.

Whats better? Teach people the skills they need to do what they are doing? Or build massive straight barried motorways every where? What about in towns with intersections etc? How are you going to band aid those to cater for the lack of driving skills?

Teaching them to avoid from driving into trucks would be a good place to start. Although if you need to be taught that... You shouldn't be allowed out of the hosue with out a helmet let alone drive a car