Toyspeed.org.nz Message Board

by **solitaire** » Tue May 15, 2007 8:04 pm

2jayzgte wrote:....

Someone call toyota... we've cracked it, well be on the podium in no time!

by **2jayzgte** » Tue May 15, 2007 11:01 pm

fivebob wrote:
2jayzgte wrote:Where as if you look at teams like Red Bull,Honda and Williams are all showing good progress and look like there going foward whereas Toyota lare in Stall mode 1 foot foward 3 backwards

LOL, Honda going forward, you must be watching a different series to the one I see... Toyota 5Pts...Honda 0Pts...and you think Toyota should be emulating Honda

Toyota are improving, Trulli's 6th position on the grid shows that. Ok so they had a fuel pressure problem that put them out of the race, but that's motorsport, sh*t happens, just ask Kimi about reliability issues in the top teams

Yes my friend Honda who have completely redesigned there car and have resolved alot of there issues that they have right now with this car.At least they being Honda can say they had 2 cars that finished the race.As for the others I mentioned Wiliams which use toyota power and Red Bull are showing definite signs.Man its just disappointing to see Toyota struggle they way they are and also at least Honda have a race win in the 2 seasons..

by **fivebob** » Tue May 15, 2007 11:21 pm

2jayzgte wrote:At least they being Honda can say they had 2 cars that finished the race.

In 10th an 12th, may as well not have bothered :roll:

You seem to have a very short memory, Toyota have finished both cars in all the other races this year, in better positions than Honda. To condemn them on the basis of one accident (not Ralf's fault) and one mechanical failure shows that you really don't understand F1 at all.

How long have you been following F1 for?

by **Jdawg** » Wed May 16, 2007 1:03 am

Not very long by the sound of it, as soon as a team starts losing or fails to improve to his expectations he puts the boot in and quits

by **Barks** » Wed May 16, 2007 10:55 am

I've drifted away from watching formula 1 since it went to sky sport (damn being a poor struggling working schmuck) but I watched Toyota's entry into the world of modern formula 1, and the seasons following.

I won't defend all of Toyota's decisions, nor will I agree with all of them, but I will continue supporting them for as long as it takes, and that's what being a motorsport fan should be - you have a team you support, and you stick with them no matter what.

I'm disappointed with the way Toyota have performed, but I'm also proud that they've managed to put together a team that IS capable of achieving podium finishes, as they've shown in the past.

Having said all that though, I really wish they'd thought a bit harder about the decision to dump Mika Salo.....

by **Mr Revhead** » Wed May 16, 2007 10:59 am

there has been talk that Heifeld is possibly being sought by Toyota....
i think Ralf needs to be told where to go, he seems to be often out classed by his team mates

by **gmacrae** » Sat May 19, 2007 8:02 pm

Well, all i know is, this thread has been far more interesting than i've ever found F1 racing to be, but thats just me. Carry on

by **2jayzgte** » Sun May 20, 2007 12:26 am

How is it you can have the highest operating budget in F1 and only still run in the midfield and then let other teams use your engines and they beat you handily ie Williams...

Surely if you've got certain amounts of money like Ferrari the next biggest budget and look at them no.1 or 2 every year for the last 10.

Are the engineers and tech people at Ferrari Mclaren Renault to name a few that better than Toyota's people could this be the reason behind there poor showing its got me miffed????The killer for me is Toyota's lack of consistency in the races and qualifying its almost like you got to flip a coin.

How is it that teams like Ferrari can lose a Rory Byrne the head designer and a Ross Brawn that they still don't miss a beat why does this happen and even they lose 7 time F1 champ and there cars and drivers are always near the top of the tree without question...

by **fivebob** » Sun May 20, 2007 3:45 pm

2jayzgte wrote:How is it you can have the highest operating budget in F1 and only still run in the midfield and then let other teams use your engines and they beat you handily ie Williams...

Again I have to ask what F1 are you watching????
Is it going on in a parallel universe or something, because it certainly isn't the current series taking place on this planet :roll:

FYI results between Williams are;

Code: Select all: Race Qualifying Race ------------------------------------------------- Melbourne Toyota Trulli 8th 9th Schumacher 9th 8th Williams Rosberg 12th 7th Wurz 15th 18th Malaysia Toyota Trulli 8th 7th Schumacher 9th 15th Williams Rosberg 6th 19th Wurz 20th 9th Bahrain Toyota Trulli 9th 7th Schumacher 14th 12th Williams Rosberg 10th 10th Wurz 11th 11th Spain Toyota Trulli 6th 20th Schumacher 17th 16th Williams Rosberg 11th 6th Wurz 18th 22nd Average Qualifying Position - Toyota 10th, Williams 13th Average Race Position - Toyota 12th, Williams 13th No. times both cars finshed better - Toyota 1, Williams 0 No. of time 1 car finished better - Toyota 2, Williams 2 No. times last car finished worse - Toyota 1, Williams 3

From what I see Toyota's results are better than Williams in every respect, so where do you see that Williams are beating Toyota "handily"?

Surely if you've got certain amounts of money like Ferrari the next biggest budget and look at them no.1 or 2 every year for the last 10.

If F1 was just a money game then it would get very boring. It's more of an experience game than a money game. Ferrari has been in F1 since the beginning in 1950 so it has 57 years experience, Toyota has been in since 2002, and IMO is doing well for the 5 years experience it has. The leading team McLaren has been in since 1966 and is the third most experienced team in the game. Funnily enough you other comparative team that you like to tout, Honda, has been in since 1964, bet there are some red faces at Honda because they have no excuses.

Also starting in 2002 means you need a larger budget to compete, you don't have the expensive wind tunnels in place, you don't have the expensive super computer networks, and you have to pay big money to attract the experienced staff that you need.

Are the engineers and tech people at Ferrari Mclaren Renault to name a few that better than Toyota's people could this be the reason behind there poor showing its got me miffed????The killer for me is Toyota's lack of consistency in the races and qualifying its almost like you got to flip a coin.

Some of it is not have data and experience to tell what is going on so you can't tune out an issue because you don't know which way to go. However a lot of it has to do with the extensive role that aerodynamics play in the current F1 regime. Get it wrong at the start of the season and you have to wait for the "away" races to finish before you can fit any new parts, and you're always playing "catch up". Judging by the drivers comments after fitting the new parts in Spain, the car is now a lot easier to drive and they can get on with the business of fine tuning it.

How is it that teams like Ferrari can lose a Rory Byrne the head designer and a Ross Brawn that they still don't miss a beat why does this happen and even they lose 7 time F1 champ and there cars and drivers are always near the top of the tree without question...

They're not always near the top of the tree, maybe this season, but you need to look back to the "bad years" to see that it's not always the case. And it just goes to prove that when you build a "team" then the loss of one or two important members doesn't have to mean you start from scratch. Toyota have a loose collection of individuals, it takes a lot longer than 5 years to build a "team" in F1.

I find this whole discussion amusing when you compare it to what happens on the Ferrari forums. They're bitching about their drivers, mainly Massa, not performing and getting upset about Kimi leaving the track early after the car failed at Spain. Guess no one is happy unless they're winning all the time :roll:

Disclaimer: I'm not a Toyota supporter in F1, I support McLaren and Ferrari, I just don't think it's fair to criticise Toyota on the basis of a one eyed view of a few (not so) poor results. If Toyota stay in f1 for 10 years I's expect to see them fighting for podiums, wins and even championships. If they get it right they could well dominate a season or two, before the inevitable bad years rear their ugly heads.

by **Jdawg** » Sun May 20, 2007 5:04 pm

Ferrari also had plenty of time to prepare for the loss of Rory Byrne, and even MS and Ross Braun.
There was an easy handover of responsibities, Jean Todt plans for every contingency.
Part of the thrill of watching F1 is how the teams improve thru the year, at the moment Red Bull are on a charge, how the other teams react is going to be the big watch.
I support every team in F1, maybe Ferrari a little more than the others.

by **solitaire** » Sun May 20, 2007 9:34 pm

Thanks Fivebob

Website · by Si » Sun May 20, 2007 10:06 pm

Honda, has been in since 1964

Hasnt honda been in and out? Didnt they drop out after the days of turbos?

by **Mr Revhead** » Sun May 20, 2007 10:22 pm

yeah on and off since then
with some loong periods in, and out.
cant recall off hadn but i think they were out for most f not all the 70s?
but since the mid 80s they have been there pretty much non stop, but untill they bought BAR they were focused on engines, dont think they had much input into chassis design

by **Mr Revhead** » Sun May 20, 2007 10:25 pm

heres a good pag on their site:
http://www.hondaracingf1.com/en/index.php?section=14&history_id=11

click the generation tabs on the right

by **2jayzgte** » Mon May 21, 2007 8:47 am

fivebob wrote:
2jayzgte wrote:How is it you can have the highest operating budget in F1 and only still run in the midfield and then let other teams use your engines and they beat you handily ie Williams...

Again I have to ask what F1 are you watching????
Is it going on in a parallel universe or something, because it certainly isn't the current series taking place on this planet

FYI results between Williams are;
Code: Select all
Race Qualifying Race ------------------------------------------------- Melbourne Toyota Trulli 8th 9th Schumacher 9th 8th Williams Rosberg 12th 7th Wurz 15th 18th Malaysia Toyota Trulli 8th 7th Schumacher 9th 15th Williams Rosberg 6th 19th Wurz 20th 9th Bahrain Toyota Trulli 9th 7th Schumacher 14th 12th Williams Rosberg 10th 10th Wurz 11th 11th Spain Toyota Trulli 6th 20th Schumacher 17th 16th Williams Rosberg 11th 6th Wurz 18th 22nd Average Qualifying Position - Toyota 10th, Williams 13th Average Race Position - Toyota 12th, Williams 13th No. times both cars finshed better - Toyota 1, Williams 0 No. of time 1 car finished better - Toyota 2, Williams 2 No. times last car finished worse - Toyota 1, Williams 3

From what I see Toyota's results are better than Williams in every respect, so where do you see that Williams are beating Toyota "handily"?
Surely if you've got certain amounts of money like Ferrari the next biggest budget and look at them no.1 or 2 every year for the last 10.

If F1 was just a money game then it would get very boring. It's more of an experience game than a money game. Ferrari has been in F1 since the beginning in 1950 so it has 57 years experience, Toyota has been in since 2002, and IMO is doing well for the 5 years experience it has. The leading team McLaren has been in since 1966 and is the third most experienced team in the game. Funnily enough you other comparative team that you like to tout, Honda, has been in since 1964, bet there are some red faces at Honda because they have no excuses.

Also starting in 2002 means you need a larger budget to compete, you don't have the expensive wind tunnels in place, you don't have the expensive super computer networks, and you have to pay big money to attract the experienced staff that you need.

Are the engineers and tech people at Ferrari Mclaren Renault to name a few that better than Toyota's people could this be the reason behind there poor showing its got me miffed????The killer for me is Toyota's lack of consistency in the races and qualifying its almost like you got to flip a coin.

Some of it is not have data and experience to tell what is going on so you can't tune out an issue because you don't know which way to go. However a lot of it has to do with the extensive role that aerodynamics play in the current F1 regime. Get it wrong at the start of the season and you have to wait for the "away" races to finish before you can fit any new parts, and you're always playing "catch up". Judging by the drivers comments after fitting the new parts in Spain, the car is now a lot easier to drive and they can get on with the business of fine tuning it.

How is it that teams like Ferrari can lose a Rory Byrne the head designer and a Ross Brawn that they still don't miss a beat why does this happen and even they lose 7 time F1 champ and there cars and drivers are always near the top of the tree without question...

They're not always near the top of the tree, maybe this season, but you need to look back to the "bad years" to see that it's not always the case. And it just goes to prove that when you build a "team" then the loss of one or two important members doesn't have to mean you start from scratch. Toyota have a loose collection of individuals, it takes a lot longer than 5 years to build a "team" in F1.

I find this whole discussion amusing when you compare it to what happens on the Ferrari forums. They're bitching about their drivers, mainly Massa, not performing and getting upset about Kimi leaving the track early after the car failed at Spain. Guess no one is happy unless they're winning all the time

Disclaimer: I'm not a Toyota supporter in F1, I support McLaren and Ferrari, I just don't think it's fair to criticise Toyota on the basis of a one eyed view of a few (not so) poor results. If Toyota stay in f1 for 10 years I's expect to see them fighting for podiums, wins and even championships. If they get it right they could well dominate a season or two, before the inevitable bad years rear their ugly heads.

Good response..
I have been checking out F1.com and Toyota are promising a better result in Monaco so I'll wait until then to put some more misplaced comments up on here.. :wink:

by **2jayzgte** » Mon May 21, 2007 8:48 am

fivebob wrote:
2jayzgte wrote:How is it you can have the highest operating budget in F1 and only still run in the midfield and then let other teams use your engines and they beat you handily ie Williams...

Again I have to ask what F1 are you watching????
Is it going on in a parallel universe or something, because it certainly isn't the current series taking place on this planet

FYI results between Williams are;
Code: Select all
Race Qualifying Race ------------------------------------------------- Melbourne Toyota Trulli 8th 9th Schumacher 9th 8th Williams Rosberg 12th 7th Wurz 15th 18th Malaysia Toyota Trulli 8th 7th Schumacher 9th 15th Williams Rosberg 6th 19th Wurz 20th 9th Bahrain Toyota Trulli 9th 7th Schumacher 14th 12th Williams Rosberg 10th 10th Wurz 11th 11th Spain Toyota Trulli 6th 20th Schumacher 17th 16th Williams Rosberg 11th 6th Wurz 18th 22nd Average Qualifying Position - Toyota 10th, Williams 13th Average Race Position - Toyota 12th, Williams 13th No. times both cars finshed better - Toyota 1, Williams 0 No. of time 1 car finished better - Toyota 2, Williams 2 No. times last car finished worse - Toyota 1, Williams 3

From what I see Toyota's results are better than Williams in every respect, so where do you see that Williams are beating Toyota "handily"?
Surely if you've got certain amounts of money like Ferrari the next biggest budget and look at them no.1 or 2 every year for the last 10.

If F1 was just a money game then it would get very boring. It's more of an experience game than a money game. Ferrari has been in F1 since the beginning in 1950 so it has 57 years experience, Toyota has been in since 2002, and IMO is doing well for the 5 years experience it has. The leading team McLaren has been in since 1966 and is the third most experienced team in the game. Funnily enough you other comparative team that you like to tout, Honda, has been in since 1964, bet there are some red faces at Honda because they have no excuses.

Also starting in 2002 means you need a larger budget to compete, you don't have the expensive wind tunnels in place, you don't have the expensive super computer networks, and you have to pay big money to attract the experienced staff that you need.

Are the engineers and tech people at Ferrari Mclaren Renault to name a few that better than Toyota's people could this be the reason behind there poor showing its got me miffed????The killer for me is Toyota's lack of consistency in the races and qualifying its almost like you got to flip a coin.

Some of it is not have data and experience to tell what is going on so you can't tune out an issue because you don't know which way to go. However a lot of it has to do with the extensive role that aerodynamics play in the current F1 regime. Get it wrong at the start of the season and you have to wait for the "away" races to finish before you can fit any new parts, and you're always playing "catch up". Judging by the drivers comments after fitting the new parts in Spain, the car is now a lot easier to drive and they can get on with the business of fine tuning it.

How is it that teams like Ferrari can lose a Rory Byrne the head designer and a Ross Brawn that they still don't miss a beat why does this happen and even they lose 7 time F1 champ and there cars and drivers are always near the top of the tree without question...

They're not always near the top of the tree, maybe this season, but you need to look back to the "bad years" to see that it's not always the case. And it just goes to prove that when you build a "team" then the loss of one or two important members doesn't have to mean you start from scratch. Toyota have a loose collection of individuals, it takes a lot longer than 5 years to build a "team" in F1.

I find this whole discussion amusing when you compare it to what happens on the Ferrari forums. They're bitching about their drivers, mainly Massa, not performing and getting upset about Kimi leaving the track early after the car failed at Spain. Guess no one is happy unless they're winning all the time

Disclaimer: I'm not a Toyota supporter in F1, I support McLaren and Ferrari, I just don't think it's fair to criticise Toyota on the basis of a one eyed view of a few (not so) poor results. If Toyota stay in f1 for 10 years I's expect to see them fighting for podiums, wins and even championships. If they get it right they could well dominate a season or two, before the inevitable bad years rear their ugly heads.

Good response..
I have been checking out F1.com and Toyota are promising a better result in Monaco so I'll wait until then to put some more misplaced comments up on here.. :wink:

by **fivebob** » Fri May 25, 2007 12:57 pm

Well the first practice at Monaco wasn't too good, a burst water pipe in the garage disabled the telemetry so they were running blind. However the second practice showed that the cars are capable of good times with Trulli finishing fourth fastest.

The less said about Ralf the better, on his only reasonable lap of the day he put it in the tyre barriers. He's well past it and needs to improve dramatically or go :evil:

by **Loudtoy** » Fri May 25, 2007 9:33 pm

fivebob wrote:I've probably been watching F1 for a lot longer than anyone else on here, even seen real F1 cars race in NZ

Cheating, or rather pushing the rule boundaries, is very common and all teams do it. Maybe not as blatant as the Toyota episode, but have you ever notices that when one team has an advantage it doesn't take long before the others adpot the same technology, even though the teams go to extraordinary lengths to hide new inventions.

Christ how old are you dude?? Don't now if the f1 cars that were here have any resembelance to the ones they race now - wings and slicks v no wings, and tyres you wold't even put on your road car these days altho very cutting edge in there day.

for me 1 vote for toyota doing a very good job in f1 - the amount of time they have been there vs the results that they are achieving is amazing. The best they should realisticly be aiming to achieve at this stage against the current competition is a podium result for one race this year.
Maybe in another 5 years or so they should be looking at a constructors chapionship but untill then it always going to be a learning curve - and the thing with a learning curve is you don't expect good results untill the curve is nearly a horizontal line

by **fivebob** » Sat May 26, 2007 3:04 am

Loudtoy wrote:
fivebob wrote:I've probably been watching F1 for a lot longer than anyone else on here, even seen real F1 cars race in NZ

Christ how old are you dude??

Old enough to know better, young enough not to care :twisted:

Also old enough to remember the Tasman Series

Don't now if the f1 cars that were here have any resembelance to the ones they race now - wings and slicks v no wings,

Wings appeared in F1 in 1968, so I first saw them in the 1969 Tasman series, after that the series went away from 2.5l F1 based cars to the very hairy F5000s. That year there were some nice examples of aerodynamics like Ferrari's 246 Dino that Chris Amon won the series with, then there were some weird and wonderful creations like the twin winged Brabham

and tyres you wold't even put on your road car these days altho very cutting edge in there day.

Probably about the level of tyres that most people put on there cars today, maybe even better, because all you had back then was mechanical grip, so the tyres had to do a lot of the work, you couldn't put 2 tonnes of aerodynamic force into them.

by **Loudtoy** » Sat May 26, 2007 1:18 pm

My bad for some reason i thought the last time f1 cars were here was early 60's. Still like the look of the F5000 cars tho i haven't seen or heard anything like one running for about 10 years and that was only a demo of it anyways

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