3sgte Build

[dzk]

Seems to be a lot 3sgte posts lately so I have a few questions around builds. I have read through everyone's 3sgte posts but haven't see too much around build prices. Please direct me to appropriate posts regarding this if I have missed them.

Once again thanks earlier to the advice given regarding my blown head gasket a few weeks back.

The stage I am at is this. Head is warped after being properly tested and was told the head is already 'soft' so no point trying to work with this. The head gasket on it was corroding like ash paper. Bearing in mind the head gasket was replaced in March 2006 (not even a year). The boost has been raised to 12-13psi so maybe it was my fault using an fcd to get past this.

So mods are to date

Vr4 front mount intercooler (Courtesy of fellow toyspeeder Grotty big ups)
Bleed valve
Bov
fcd
boost gauge (mechanical)
Heavy duty clutch

Everything else standard.

Since the head is stuffed I am looking for another one that can be rebuilt or one thats in good condition

My mechanic suggested since the we need a head and the engine is out (gearbox being replaced too) why not forge it and bulletproof it while we are at it.

I want to have about 350hp or slightly higher. I know with aftermarket ecu and a few other bits etc and a good tune I may be able to reach 250-300hp without doing this.

1. I am wanting to know how much roughly from an engine reconditioner what I am looking at to get the block prepared for forged pistons.

2. Do I need forged rods or are the st185 ones up to it?

3. What compression and brand forged pistons to go for? Je?, Cp? Wiseco?
What size etc would I need to get?

I understand that the lower compression means you can run more boost and high compression means less boost.

4. Does a metal headgasket mean that the compression is lowered somewhat or just part of bullet proofing along with arp head gear?

Like most people I don't have an endless supply of money and this is something I will chip away at over the next few weeks. Am I naive in thinking 3000.00 should cover it in terms of the actual engine build? Bearing in mind I am already having a different turbo to the factory ct26 replaced with a subaru turbo and group A downpipe.

Things that will be replaced or are now in the process of being replaced.

New cambelt, idlers and tensioners
Valve guides (all of them as smoky exhaust whilst idling)
Spark plugs
Distributor

Ecu probably a link but will get that after the engine is built and back in the car.

Sorry about the long post but need to know what I am in for. All the other 3sgte guys on here seem to be 'doing the build' so I thought I would too instead of living through them vicariously.

Your thoughts and opinions are much appreciated.

Thanks

Frank

[Prymal]

ok to answer a couple off the bat

1. I am wanting to know how much roughly from an engine reconditioner what I am looking at to get the block prepared for forged pistons.

No idea - Sorry - though my rebuild and install in oz , including a new clutch and a St205 box swap, and the purchase of a second hand group A long block to build up cost around 8 grand AUS without the ECU - My plans were 400 - 450 HP for the engines limits

2. Do I need forged rods or are the st185 ones up to it?

Use St205 Rods - Cheap - Strong , well up to the task for 350 HP - Used them in my gen2 rebuild in association with arp Rod bolts - to great effect ( also had a set of ACL oversize forgies in the engine ). The engine was putting out close to 320 HP at the flywheel , with standard fuel pump , rail injectors , and 15PSI on a standard trim Ct26 Steel shaft


3. What compression and brand forged pistons to go for? Je?, Cp? Wiseco?
What size etc would I need to get?

You wont know until you see the conditon of your bore .. It might only need a light hone , or in my case - a little more to get wear and tear brought out

4. Does a metal headgasket mean that the compression is lowered somewhat or just part of bullet proofing along with arp head gear?

Grab a TRD one off Mr revhead , pop in a set of ARP headstuds , on top of said forgies and 205 rods etc - and youll get the figure you want - and moreso if you want to

A little click http://forums.toyspeed.org.nz/viewtopic.php?t=48478 <- here and youll see a brief rundown of an engine package that was well capable of what you want , with ease

It was tough , reliable , and still didnt consume huge amounts of fuel budget for extremely good results

Your welcome to PM me for any other details

[dzk]

Thanks man. Yours cost quite a lot more than what I was thinking. Forgot about fuel system and factoring that into the end hp goal.

St205 rods, how cheap? How easy to get? I had a good read of your post and there was some good info there. Forgot to mention the clutch was already uprated when I bought the car and has plenty of life left in it.

Do the st205 cams have a higher degree lift than st185 and bolt straight in?

So size and compression I won't know until the block has been to the engine recon guys. Got that.

Hopefully its a light hone. Had a look at it. I am no expert (thats why I'm asking here). There were no scratch or etch marks in the bore that I could see but the surface itself was quite smooth if thats any indication. Block itself on the outside looks fine with no cracks. Just gutted about that head.

I would love an rc, even just the bonnets cool. Just rare.

I have had a quick look at various nz websites selling forged pistons and seems to be about 1000-1250 for a set. If the rods on an st205 are cheaper than 800.00 for forged then even half that then thats good.

Copy that on the trd head gasket and arp head gear.

[fivebob]

Why bother with Gen III rods??? The Gen II ones are good enough for 500HP+.

The Gen III intake cam has 0.5mm more lift, the exhaust cam is the same.

[dzk]

Sweet, gen 2 rods stay then if they are good till 500hp. Thats good news Fivebob.

st185 cams stay as well for the time being too.

Thanks

[Akane]

If you haven't checked the 3S-GTE power primer on mrcontrols, do so now:

http://www.mrcontrols.com/primers/primers.htm

If you're looking for 350hp, you don't need to go overboard with all that blingy stuff to make that power. People tend to overspend on forging stuff when they don't need to.

I'm worried about that engine of yours, sounds quite knackered, a healthy engine should take 350hp no problem, I'm doing 300hp @ wheels with my $500 engine that has done over 200,000kms.

Areas you might want to look at is the tuning to get to 350hp. Sump baffles if you're feelin' bling'd up. And even an intake manifold.

Spend the rest of your cash on fuel mods and ECU / tuning.

Not taking into the engine rebuild into account, you should be able to get away with $2000 for turbo, $1500~ for ECU, $1000 labour, $700 tuning, $500~$1000 for Fueling mods (Fuel pump + injectors).

Power don't come cheap (That's why we don't see 500hp 1200kg cars often) but that's the best deal out there for 3S-GTE, factory cams will get you almost 350hp, after that you can do a staggered setup with an intake cam only and you'll hit 350hp imo.

If you're starting to back out already (Hey I don't blame you, it's really $$$), you can get by with a ct20b, a nice downpipe, and you'll have some fun, just make sure you don't overspeed those turbos.

Get a decent gauge to monitor your boost levels, they're cheap ($250~) for a Japanese gauge.

[Adydas]

$5600 is the build cost of my 3sgte,($8900 Including ECU and Turbo etc) that was with some work done my self, stripped the block removed the pistons before taking it to be worked on, torquing down the head etc after.

- JE pistons
- Eagle Rods
- Bearings
- Block Prep ( Bore honing )
- Custom Cams
- Valve Springs
- Head Gasket
- Head Kit ( new valve stem seals etc )
- Sard Injectors
- Crank Balance
- Rebuilt Oil Pump

Im sure you get the idea.

[TOYO-GT-T]

If you haven't checked the 3S-GTE power primer on mrcontrols, do so now:

http://www.mrcontrols.com/primers/primers.htm
.

Can I follow this guide for the Calidna GTT-T since it's the same engine as the MR2. Without going into detail I guess the Caldina 3S-GTE puts out more power from factory 190kw? due to later technology?

[flygt4]

most gtt's ive seen on the dyno make 10-20kw less than the st205's ive seen. the mr2's with the ct20b make more than both due to the lower drivetrain loss. i suspect the gtt's make less because of the different turbo.


omg Akane, good and informative post

[fivebob]

most gtt's ive seen on the dyno make 10-20kw less than the st205's ive seen. the mr2's with the ct20b make more than both due to the lower drivetrain loss. i suspect the gtt's make less because of the different turbo.

If they do make less, and I seriously doubt that they do from the standard examples of both that I've seen, it certainly wouldn't be from the difference in the turbo. The compressor is the same, the turbine is only single entry, but from what I can see should create no more restriction the the CT20B, and possibly less.

So, at the same boost level, the flow shouldn't be any less, and we all know that flow is what determines HP, not boost.... Well that's what I know anyway, others are still of the mistaken impression that boost=hp

[Akane]

LOL@you guys.

If someone asks proper questions I'll answer them properly.

Not "omgz my 3S-GTE is teh godlike I'm gonna makez mad powahs nau!"

[flygt4]

good point fivebob. the examples im thinking of were modifed roughly equivalent to each other,only larger exhausts and a better aitfilter usually.
most of the gtt's ive seen or heard of dyno run factory boost or usually no more than 14psi, and put down 150-165kw atw
Some of the st205's ive seen/heard of have had 14-17ish psi, and put down 160-180kw.
by comparison, ive seen a couple of mr2's put down 180-195kw atw.

if the turbos are as similar specced as you say the extra pressure may account for the difference anyway. i wasnt sure whether the caldina items used the same compressor and turbine as the ct20b.

oh and yes they are very vague comparisons due to difference in dynos etc , they are just general trends ive noticed

ps i am a closet 3sgte fan,so i try to keep an eye on what people do with them. one day ill have one again , probly a wagon when i get bored of the current one

[dzk]

Thanks Akane, Adydas and the rest.

The engine itself has 145,000k's. The head is definitely stuffed so if anyone from the dead 3s society has one pm me with the details.

I have read the power primer before and started doing the small things suggested on it. Boost gauge, clutch, bleed valve, fcd but didn't want to run more than 13 on the ceramic turbo.

Im keen to try out the subaru turbo with an adaptor plate specially made. It also means if I want to upgrade to a later version subaru turbo the parts will be easier to source and should be a straight bolt on. I should of bought the ct20b when they were going for 1600.00 instead of the 2000.00 that they are now.

It does seem like a lot but at the end of the day I will have an engine that will hopefully be bullet proof and allow me to go higher if I choose to.

Adydas I have been following your build for awhile and can't wait to see the end result. Even gt4wrc's post regarding his st205 build with photos etc was quite impressive even though he has sold the car.

I think about 5000-6000 isn't too bad when you factor everything minus ecu.

I think with the wealth of good info received here I will get the block to an engine reconditioner and start there.

It is big dollars but I only want to do this once and do it right the first time as I am sure some of you have seen more than one 3sgte project come to a halt because someone cut corners.

[flygt4]

what subaru turbo did you have on it?
i ran my old gt4 with an FCD and 15-16psi for around 12 months on the standard ct26, and it never suffered any terminal issues while i had it other than clutchs and gearboxs.
dont blame yourself too much, it could have just been a tired engine, or the HG may not hav been replaced properly or something freaky like that.

[dzk]

Im getting a subaru turbo put on it as something experimental. I believe its a rs ra legacy turbo. Maybe the headgasket wasn't done properly which has lead to the head dying the way it did.

I just didn't want to take the risk of upping the boost more and stuffing the turbo. Other people are just lucky I guess.

I just think since the engines out I may as well go the for the build and run higher boost safely so the engine can handle it hopefully.

[flygt4]

ah ok, i think they are a vf8 or vf10, something like that. they are cheap and plentiful, but wont really make that much power.
its a good flange to have tho, as then you have the option of the full array of wrx and sti turbos, so you can choose a ball bearing turbo VF2* or even a good old tdo5 once you have that flange on a manifold. just make sure you leave a bit of clearance on it, so you can fit one with a larger compressor housing later without clahsing with your radiator or anything like that.

[dzk]

Yeah that was the idea with going with that flange just to see what it runs like and then it opens up the whole vf series in terms of upgrades, availability. Cheaper I believe to get an sti turbo put on at some stage instead of 2k for a ct20b. First things first. Get the block work done.

[flygt4]

haha yeah first things first.

FYI my vf24 BB STI turbo was $1100inc gst brand new and delivered. vf22 and vf 23 are about the same