RWD 3SGTE Engine angle question

[turbora28]

Hello, not sure if anyone on these forums has done a RWD 3sgte conversion? But I need a bit of a hand as stuck with something.

I am converting a 3sgte (st185 bottom end with st205 head) into a RWD setup in a RA28 Celica.

I am using a 2S sump, 2S bellhousing, and 2S mounts as a basis for the rwd stuff.

Now the problem I have with the engine sitting in the bay , the bellhousing and sump want the engine to sit on a 10 degree or so lean/angle to the exhaust side. So on this angle the bowl of the 2s sump is flat and the gearbox sits flat. The gearstick comes up in the centre of the hole.

But my concern is the oil drains are on the inlet side of the head. And in the GT4 the engine would have leaned to the inlet side by a large amount.

Some people who have done the conversion are also telling me the engine should sit flat.

But if I try and sit the engine flat, the gearbox sits on an angle and the gearstick wont come through the centre of the hole (the hole would actually need to be enlarged), also the gearbox xmember is all twisted.

So anyone else come up with this problem before and what did you do about it? Did you let it sit on the exhaust side? Or if you straightened it up what did you do about the gearbox angle?

Thanks
joel

[Caveman]

I always thought these engines lay with exhaust side up to fit the relativily large engine in the engine bay with a TMIC and fit the headers. The radiators are also on the same angle. I guess it also allows for the cosmetics of the low bonnet.

From what i've seen they do in the ST165 and ST185 but not sure about the ST205 or ST215 (caldina) as i've never seen one. Someone else may be able to clearify this.

[GT4 20]

Yep, ST205 mounted motors lean backwards. I was under the impression that it was to do with weight distribution. Lean the engine back towards the centre of the car and you'll improve the COG.
Gary

[BBBrad]

Talk to the guys at fraser or chevron kit cars. They do this 3sge upright conversion all the time. They prob can help abit with the angles etc.

[Ae92typeX]

Fraser Cars:

1/318 Beach Haven Rd, Beach Haven
Auckland, New Zealand

Ph. (64 9) 482 0071
Fax. (64 9) 482 0516


As said they do this conversion often & also do car certs Im 99% sure, so would be a good place to have a talk to anyway.

[turbora28]

Hi all , thanks for the comments.

Yeah in the GT4 etc the inlet side was the lower side and exhaust higher up.

But in my setup its the opposite, it is leaning with the exhaust side lower than the inlet side. Which I think is bad.

I'll try Fraser.

Thanks
Joel

[Mr Revhead]

hey joel you should have that thing running by now!!

theres a guy here whos done one.... ill give him a call to confirm but i think he put an oil drain from the head.

ill be in touch

[turbora28]

Yeah yeah i should pull my finger out i've been trying lately!

Thanks for looking into it..

I've sent you an email also regards a different bellhousing. I think this 2S one is just screwing up the angle of the engine/gearbox.

Fraser said can use a 1S.. But few guys over here are using Y series bellhousings which put the starter on the driver side also which is a plus!

[Caveman]

Is it possible you have the head rotated? Or could you rotate the head to suit? On factory inline setup the water should be coming out the firewall side.

[Mr Revhead]

hehe um no.... it costs rather a lot to do that.....
nissan for examle gave janspeed a budget of 1/2 a million pounds to do that to the primera engine in the BTCC.....

[Caveman]

Im sure theres a lancer which races with this setup as its transverse and the headers go through the firewall...

[CozmoNz]

Im sure theres a lancer which races with this setup as its transverse and the headers go through the firewall...

black gsr?

runs an evo 4 engine i think. Mitsi swapped the engine around in the later generation evo's thus why it comes out the other side (the rocker cover faces the wrong direction to). Not just the head is turned, the entire engine sits facing the other direction.

[Distrb]

Im sure theres a lancer which races with this setup as its transverse and the headers go through the firewall...

Im sure theres a lancer which races with this setup as its transverse and the headers go through the firewall...

black gsr?

runs an evo 4 engine i think. Mitsi swapped the engine around in the later generation evo's thus why it comes out the other side (the rocker cover faces the wrong direction to). Not just the head is turned, the entire engine sits facing the other direction.

in drags yes...

one evo 3 - R1PUUP

[Mr Revhead]

yes zohab or something like that...

i think youll find they spun the engine round... in the evo4 (i think) they spun the engine round and put the gearbox on the other side
he would have used one type of box and the other type of engine probably
its a major major job to do... youd prob have to recast the head, none of the oil drains match etc etc its a rather big undertaking!

[Caveman]

Yeah I would have thought it would have been had to mate up the water jacket and oil drains, Oh well just a sugestion...

another sugestion: Make up an adapter plate between the engine and bell housing. You should be able to rotate the gearbox enough so the engine is sitting flat with the gearbox in the correct orientation, however, i'd put the engine on the original angle as not to upset the pick up or draining of the oil.

[suberimakuri]

www.garagedori.com

my NA conversion details there.

2S sump has no baffles, which means skids = run bearing.

[KinLoud]

I'm about to put a gen3 3sge into my rwd carina (at long bloody last!!!)

I spoke to Kevin Hunt owner of Redline Performance Cars at the motor show here at hamilton last weekend.
He makes ready to race sportscars. Most of the cars he makes are fitted with 3rd gen 3sge's.
He said that with these engines they haven't experience the oiling problems that are reported with gen 1 and 2 3sge engines when setup for rwd.
He mounts them upright... no probs.

I could be wrong but I thought that the 3sgte blocks don't have the holes drilled for the rwd engine mounts on the exhaust side??? I have read this here http://www.toysport.com/Technical%20Inf ... _notes.htm but I haven't confirmed it.

I guess that the ST205 head is very similar/the same as the gen3 3sge he uses, so...
The draining of the head should be ok as long as all the holes in the ST185 block are the same size.
But...
- The gen 3 has a different sump - 2 piece, alloy with a steel bowl that bolts to it. On my sump, the steel bowl was cut around 3 sides and a new section inserted so the bottom of the sump is level when the engine is upright. I will lengthen the oil pickup.
Also, the oil filter base and pressure relief valve are part of the sump. There is still the standard oil filter base on the side of the engine where toyota fits the oil cooler (cooled by water from the colling system).
- The gen 3 3sge has a full length oil scraper that fits just below the crank.
- I am going to fit a sheet of metal between the alloy and steel part of the sump as a baffle. It will have appropriate holes cut in it for the oil pickup and dipstick. I think it will help prevent the oil in the steel bowl part of the sump from surging out and away from the pickup under acceleration etc.

Karl comments on the 2s sump... I have a couple of 1s sumps that have fairly good baffling. You can fit a 1s or 2s sump to a gen3 3sge motor but you have to fit a gen 1 or 2 3sge oil pump - this is due to the fact that the gen3 pump will pump all the oil back into the sump, expecting the alloy sump to direct the oil to the filter and past the pressure relief valve!

I have a couple of Y motor to W gearbox bellhousings if you are after one.

I'm sure that there is lots of other stuff but can't think of it right now.

Ken
Hamilton
021 408 863

[Malcolm]

I could be wrong but I thought that the 3sgte blocks don't have the holes drilled for the rwd engine mounts on the exhaust side??? I have read this here http://www.toysport.com/Technical%20Inf ... _notes.htm but I haven't confirmed it.

I would be a bit dubious about information on that site, read it for about 30 seconds and found so much false information that I didn't want to let anything else on the page into my brain.

[suberimakuri]

gte blocks are different. I can't remember if it's on the old old article that mark harrison wrote about 3s's on the garagedori.com website.

went out to puke today, but unfortunately no drifting, so couldn't tell you if my sump setup and upright motor are perfect....

[KE20]

hi. i have had 5 3s's in my ke20. a gen1 3sgte, then 2 gen1 3sge, then a gen2 3sgte block with gen1 head,then with a ported gen2 head. the first 3 engines i had, i had mounted upright, when ringing the shit out of it around manfeild it would have too much oil in the head and about a half litre would go into the catch can. thats after15 mins. by the end of the day the bearings were gone. the last engine i fitted i had on the same angle as fwd, i could ring the shit out of it all day, and all the oil would go back to the sump and none in the catch can.
if you take the cam covers or head off you can see there is only a drain for the oil on one side, and it aint near the back off the engine either. i have heard off guys running a pipe on the exhaust side from the head to the sump so there is drainage on both sides, but i stick to the angleing the engine. i used a w57 box and just headed the stick and bent it,it only came out about an inch to the right. closer to me so easyier to change gears. w57 fits in standard ke20 tunnel.
i also found that the rwd 1s and 2s sumps had shit baffling and the fwd 3s sump and more and better rwd baffling than the 1/2s sumps.
imho i would angle the 3s with the original sump.
and a custom exhaust manifold to turn the turbo around, and i had a custom inlet manifold.