ST165 3SGTE on track: possible oiling issues?

[sergei]

I have ST165 with gen1 3SGTE that I am going to take to track days.
3S are known to run bearings. So far most run bearings incidents I have heard of are falling in following categories:
1) Low oil and general maintenance issues
2) Rebuild fail
3) Engine upright

I was thinking about getting Accusump, but it turns out kit from states is about 700NZD not including shipping (cylinder, EPC valve, check valve and mounting). Plus I doubt it will be delivered here fast enough so I could install it before I go on track day.

Someone here suggested to overfill the engine with oil. How much can a 3SGTE take before it starts sloshing oil with crankshaft?

Who successfully run their gen1/gen2 3SGTE on track without destroying bearings?

[Malcolm]

I remember many years ago that Richard D (RunningRich) had his at a track day, might be worth sending him a PM to find out if he had any issues and what steps he took if any

[Mr Revhead]

Got an old sump? Fill it with water and measure how much it takes to fill it to the baffle level?

[RunningRich]

I never had any on-track issues apart from a horrible appetite for tyres and brakes. Pagid endurance race pads fixed the brakes (nil fade in 100 laps, offset by no brakes when cold).

I don't actually think 3S engines have an issue with bearings. I believe that is an internet myth explained by poor maintenance.

You should have bought the Bilsteins I was selling, they were brillant on my ST165! You need front camber, dial in as much as you can. Add a little front +ve toe to make it turn in quicker. Get the superpro (?) front lower arm rear offset repair bushings to increase front caster.

[sergei]

I never had any on-track issues apart from a horrible appetite for tyres and brakes. Pagid endurance race pads fixed the brakes (nil fade in 100 laps, offset by no brakes when cold).

I don't actually think 3S engines have an issue with bearings. I believe that is an internet myth explained by poor maintenance.

You should have bought the Bilsteins I was selling, they were brillant on my ST165! You need front camber, dial in as much as you can. Add a little front +ve toe to make it turn in quicker. Get the superpro (?) front lower arm rear offset repair bushings to increase front caster.

Thanks for your reply, really appreciate it.

I already have bilsteins in it , as well as whiteline anti-lift kit (increases front caster), and front and rear whiteline sway bar. I have set maximum front camber (as much as I could set on factory camber adjustment).

[strx7]

you need to dail in alot more caster to get rid of the power on understeer in a 4wd. get camber/caster plates and mount them in with the slot facing the centre of the firewall so as you dial in more camber you get more caster with it.

[Dell'Orto]

I don't actually think 3S engines have an issue with bearings. I believe that is an internet myth explained by poor maintenance.

I think its more due to people using them in RWD upright configurations, know of one chap who's killed a few that way

[loudstealthGT-Four]

I've run my GT-Four in two trackdays at Teretonga without any issues

As long as its got plenty of oil then you shouldn't have any issues

heres a vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xv71xW3FKEM

[sergei]

Yay! Engine survived the track day. it never dropped below 1.4Bar in the corners (I have a pressure switch wired to a very bright LED, that serves as CEL as well).
I cooked the brakes (even ST185 big rotors weren't good enough), I lost a bolt then a gasket on one of the wastegates (will probably wire the bolts and use copper gasket).

Old GSD3 were not up to the task, initially they were OK, but then they got too hot and slippery. I spun out once. I felt very slow in the corners as everyone else were passing me with their semislicks while I was squealing around hoping for more grip. On straight I would catch up, but there isn't a long straight on Hampton Downs (and straights aren't fun ).

So here are the things I need to improve:

1) Big brakes (EBC red stuff turned into dirty yellow after 5+10min break+4 laps).
2) Better engine cooling, although it never hit 110'C (I have Link turning CEL if it does) it did somewhat boil when I had to pull over into pits, when I lost gasket on one of the wastegates. I suspect shitty pressure cap and the fact that I came to abrupt halt without cooling down lap.

Any suggestions on the cooling department (I run 19 row oil cooler already)? I can improve flow with some ducting, but I am thinking using fatter radiator and moving it forward with remote filler/pressure cap (subaru style), as I don't have any space left between radiator and turbo.


I will start new thread about brake upgrade.

[Mr Ree]

How many revs were you pulling when you were seeing 1.4bar of OP? You want to have atleast 10psi for every 1000rpm (rule of thumb)

If your 19 row oil cooler is properly ducted, I very much doubt you will overheat the coolant provided you do a cool down lap at the end of the session.

Look into ensureing the airflow to your radiator goes through the core, instead of around it. Adhesive foam tape around the front face of the core, and running all factory shrouds and underbelly is pretty crucial.

What ratio of water/coolant are you running?

P.S EBC are pants, a new compound will do you wonders

[sergei]

How many revs were you pulling when you were seeing 1.4bar of OP? You want to have atleast 10psi for every 1000rpm (rule of thumb)

If your 19 row oil cooler is properly ducted, I very much doubt you will overheat the coolant provided you do a cool down lap at the end of the session.

Look into ensureing the airflow to your radiator goes through the core, instead of around it. Adhesive foam tape around the front face of the core, and running all factory shrouds and underbelly is pretty crucial.

What ratio of water/coolant are you running?

P.S EBC are pants, a new compound will do you wonders

I have a warning light set to come on at 1.4Bar or below, the only time it would come on is on very hot idle, it would go off when I would rev it to 1200rpm.
I just checked and the pressure cap is busted, it no longer holds the pressure, I have a brand new one already, which I will replace it with.

Basically what happened is I spun out, hit the painted curb with bottom of the car, decided to continue, heard really weird noise (turned out wastegate blown, it was really hard to tell with helmet on), decided to pull in pits without cool down lap (I though it was much more serious). This caused it to boil (the pressure cap was not holding pressure at all).

Ratio 50:50.

[strx7]

run straight water with a bottle of water wetter in it.

[RunningRich]

EBC Red Stuff are only street pads, none of which will hold up on the track well.

Big brakes will do bugger all to reduce fade if you are cooking street pads with them.

[MilfHunter]

What radiator you running?

Shrouding the radiator helps heaps, air tends to go around it.

Removing the brake shields helps to keep the temps down

Automatic, Diesel (ST190) radiators are thicker


With my GE at H/Downs oil pressure went from good to nil in 7 laps. Oil temp was 150+ deg and pressure recovered when it cooled.
20k/km motor running GTX 20w-50 with the gen2 w/o cooler (cleaned), the water pump, pipes etc showed
100deg on a gun but oil filter was over 150 deg?
Oil (fresh) was above full level, bearing clearances are all good to large but under the limit.
sample pic


Apart for synthetic oil, reducing clearances, a/o cooler - what gives?

[CelicaGT8]

Aftermarket oil cooler, Redline oil, Race bearings, st185 or 5sfe oil pump

[sergei]

I am running stock ST165 radiator.
I am thinking of using something like STi radiator, and fitting it in inside of the frame, as I don't have much space between turbo and stock radiator.

[RomanV]

Not an st165, but i daily drove an sw20 with gen 2 3sge for months without issue, trackday with semislicks nuked the bearings in a few laps.

The later sumps really are miles better, i dont doubt this is a big factor when cornering speeds get up there.

[MilfHunter]

Car has ACL race bearings and GT4 o/pump.
New sump (not fitted) has been modded as I've heard many tales of Hampton being a 3/5S killer.

The oil temp problem is worrying, with a bigger pump and clearances - surely flow through the bearings would be increased and therefore run cooler and not hotter?

Stock 3S Gen1 coolers (o/seas GE's) came with an external cooler, but cold oil was fed back to the sump instead of the bearings where it's needed.
The gen2 coolers are prone to blocking with rust, this one's clean but may be the cause of the problem?

[MAGN1T]

I am running stock ST165 radiator.
I am thinking of using something like STi radiator, and fitting it in inside of the frame, as I don't have much space between turbo and stock radiator.

Do you have a huge big FMIC blocking the airflow?

As for your oil level, the more you rev it, the more oil volume gets sucked out of the sump and takes time to drain back to the sump so the sump level drops. So if it's slightly overfilled when it's sitting, it'll be probably OK when racing.

Steve

[sergei]

I am running stock ST165 radiator.
I am thinking of using something like STi radiator, and fitting it in inside of the frame, as I don't have much space between turbo and stock radiator.

Do you have a huge big FMIC blocking the airflow?

As for your oil level, the more you rev it, the more oil volume gets sucked out of the sump and takes time to drain back to the sump so the sump level drops. So if it's slightly overfilled when it's sitting, it'll be probably OK when racing.

Steve

No FMIC , it has w/a radiator though.

I will cut out the holes in the bumper as per image (not my car ) to improve airflow: