2AZ-FE High Oil Consumption

[ptrain]

Hi All, I've done some searching here and haven't found anything of note. Maybe I'm blind...

I've noticed my Toyota Blade 2.4 G with the 2AZ-FE engine is burning what seems like a lot of oil. I recon it needs about 500ML every 2000KMs. I'm using an OEM filter and Valvoline Syn Power 5W-40. The car is 2007 with 70K kms on the clock.

It seems to be running fine, no rattles noises or smoke, but I've never seen a car use this much oil. Some googling indicates this is a big problem with these engines. Just wondering if anyone here has the same issue? Is there risks to this long term? I don;'t really mind topping it up every now and again as long as the burning isn't detrimental. If its slowly burning its way to bigger issues, it might be time to sell! Has anyone found a fix for it?

I've read some stuff from the US around an extended warranty to 10 years for these engines, but since this is a Jap import I would assume it doesn't apply...

Interested to hear your thoughts.

[Al]

The fix is to buy the Blade Master.

[ptrain]

The fix is to buy the Blade Master.

dont tempt me!

[BlakeNZ]

i have a 2az in a 2006 previa . After about 220,000km it started to use oil. which i found disappointing, given the 'super reliable' reputation the camry 4 cylinder motor enjoys. It uses about 250ml per 2000km. I had it compression tested recently (approx 290,000km) and the compression was very respectable and pretty even too. Doesn't blow blue smoke. The mechanic said, "look, you will still get your planned 400,000km out of it, but you may just need to check the oil level at 5000km intervals".
I can't fault your oil rating use in that you are using a 5w rated oil, which should minimise wear at start up, and the 40 viscosity rating at operating temp, should, in theory, mean less oil can sneak past the rings. Can i suggest next oil change that you try a non synthetic oil, to see if oil use drops? I wouldn't sell the car until you have tested it that way. Hey, who knows, perhaps it will be like the 2014 Holden colorados , where a portion of the vehicles that were having excessive oil consumption issues stopped the oil use at around the 70,000km mark!??

[Kiwi-Corolla]

The 2AZ-FE is a notorious engine for using oil. From the first 2001 ACV36 shape Camry's right through to the late model Blades and Estimas they tend to burn/use oil consistently, which usually results in engine failure due to the owner not checking the oil level regularly. I work at a Toyota wrecker and EVERY single 2AZ-FE engine we get in doesn't hang around for long, usually a couple of weeks max before they sell. Everything from the Camry, Blade, Estima, Ipsum, Mark X Zio, RAV4 and Avensis - They ALL seem to suffer from the same problem eventually. There's not really any fix, you just have to monitor the consumption regularly and have some money stashed away 'just in case'.

Or do what Al said and get a Master (or better yet, a Master G). No oil consumption issues with the 2GR-FE engine, they just have a tendency to blow the rear VVTi rubber oil line on early models - So instead of burning oil you'll be squirting it out instead........But from about mid-2008 onwards they had a full metal pipe to remedy that problem (or you can get it changed yourself for peace of mind and never have to worry). Twice as much fun and half as much risk, what more could you want?!

[Bling]

My 4age burned oil the whole 7-8 years I owned it, it never had any issues, so I wouldn't be concerned. Our 2AZ doesn't appear to use any oil, its sitting around the 140k mark now I think. I forget what oil it runs, but it could be 10/30, would need to check.

[RS13]

I'm pretty sure I saw your old Levin down Memorial the other day, looks pretty tidy still, same wheels etc. Its' always nice to sell cars on to people who take care of them!

Also, those AZ engines are just rubbish. Went for the 1ZZ (ZL) Caldina over the 1AZ (2L ZT) Caldina because of this, surprises me that Toyota really seemed to drop the ball with the early direct injection engines.

[sergei]

I'm pretty sure I saw your old Levin down Memorial the other day, looks pretty tidy still, same wheels etc. Its' always nice to sell cars on to people who take care of them!

Also, those AZ engines are just rubbish. Went for the 1ZZ (ZL) Caldina over the 1AZ (2L ZT) Caldina because of this, surprises me that Toyota really seemed to drop the ball with the early direct injection engines.

Apart from 2GR-FE, Toyota dropped the ball on all engines since about 2005 (or whenever 2ZZGE was discontinued). They could not even come up with a modern 4AGE replacement and got Subaru N/A jobbie instead.

Where are the 4AG(Z)E/3SG(T)E/1(2)JZG(T)E equivalent engines and cars to match? All they make is boring shit.

[Bling]

I have zero issues with the performance of our blade, obviously 2GR > 2AZ. BZG was a fun car for sure, but the blade would be quicker (never compared them side by side mind you) and actually has torque. People are demanding boring, easy to drive cars I guess. They just meet the market.

I'm pretty sure I saw your old Levin down Memorial the other day, looks pretty tidy still, same wheels etc. Its' always nice to sell cars on to people who take care of them!

Good to know, I keep an eye out, but haven't seen it in years.

[glowee]

The Mrs bought a 2007 Blade 2az, i noticed the oil usage very quickly, while working at the local toyota dealer, we had varied success with slowing it down, we did a engine oil flush then ran a diesel 15w40 oil for one service interval then went back to the 10w40 petrol oil, did this to hers and it has slowed down the oil usage alot,

[sergei]

The Mrs bought a 2007 Blade 2az, i noticed the oil usage very quickly, while working at the local toyota dealer, we had varied success with slowing it down, we did a engine oil flush then ran a diesel 15w40 oil for one service interval then went back to the 10w40 petrol oil, did this to hers and it has slowed down the oil usage alot,

Just to point out: most of oils sold these days are "Diesel" oils (as in suitable for a light duty Diesel engine).
Second point: the viscosity difference at operating temperature between 15W40 and 10W40 is insignificant.

The difference between Diesel oil and Petrol oil is simply amount and type of detergents. A lot of modern diesels have DPF and are very sensitive to additives in the oil, hence a DPF compatible ("Diesel") oil is not necessary a better oil.

If you want to thicken it up try Castrol 10W60. Other options go with 0W40 or 5W40 both ester based oils (mineral base will burn easier). BTW thicker does not mean less oil consumption.

Here is the TSB for it: http://www.rav4world.com/tsb/2011/T-SB-0094-11.pdf

[See edit below]. From TSB I could not determine what is actual cause of the oil consumption. All it described is standard "rebuild" procedure. I guess they are evading the problem at hand on purpose.
Perhaps it is because of weaker tension on oil control rings (as in Subaru case of oil consumption issue) as in Subaru FB engines.
As note, they reduce the tension of rings to reduce the friction losses, thus potentially increasing fuel economy (and/or emissions). I would rather have 5% worse fuel economy with a block that will last three times as long.

If they are actually using these low tension/resistance piston rings to pass emissions, it would be ironic if as a result they are burning oil in an uncontrolled fashion (worse emissions overall). I don't think they are going for fuel economy, as for that they could simply lie (as they are doing anyway).

Maybe actual fix is putting on some aftermarket rings?

EDIT: above appears to be incorrect, from BobIsTheOilGuy forum, as I understand the problem is following: The oil control ring drain holes in the piston are poorly designed and under certain conditions will clog. Apparently if car is ran on good quality low viscosity synthetic oil the problem is evaded. If people put out of the mechanic's barrel crap instead, the problem becomes more apparent (in a permanent fashion).

Between head bolt issue and this oil consumption issue, it appears that Toyota completely dropped the ball with 2AZFE.

[sergei]

Doing more "research" I found this image:

from here:
http://www.rav4world.com/forums/96-4-3-general/68762-rav-drinking-oil-12.html
Which is actually from 1ZZFE but nevertheless is same problem.
The original thread is here:
http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/131-8th-generation-1998-2002/235960-solution-oil-dissappearing-1zzfe-engine-17.html
Actual 2AZFE piston is here (no hot linking of the image):
http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/104-5th-6th-generation-2002-2006-2007-2011/427761-piston-ring-life-opinions-now-build-thread-2.html

Yeah...Once clogged, no diesel oil will fix that, not even running it on diesel instead of oil . Moral is don't run cheap, out-of-the-barrel oil (unless of course barrel is Motul double ester ).

Good old Toyota sludge problem strikes back.

[ptrain]

Wow thanks Sergei! Sorry I've neglected this thread. I've found the same stuff you did in the world wide web. The american dealers appear to be offering the rebuild at reduced cost, i guess because the sold the cars. The dealers here aren't so keen to do it with imported jap cars...

Have you guys got any opinion on cleaners? I've been researching things like seafoam, Auto-RX, etc as cleaners to try and unclog the drain holes. Any opinions on this?

I'm in 2 minds about what to do with it, I'm tempted to try experiment with the cleaners, Auto-RX sounds like the best option. If there's no risk of making things worse, I'll do it. If it fixes it great if not I'll flick the car on. Its chewing through about 1 litre per 1200kms at the moment. It appears to be worse in traffic then open road.

[sergei]

Wow thanks Sergei! Sorry I've neglected this thread. I've found the same stuff you did in the world wide web. The american dealers appear to be offering the rebuild at reduced cost, i guess because the sold the cars. The dealers here aren't so keen to do it with imported jap cars...

Have you guys got any opinion on cleaners? I've been researching things like seafoam, Auto-RX, etc as cleaners to try and unclog the drain holes. Any opinions on this?

I'm in 2 minds about what to do with it, I'm tempted to try experiment with the cleaners, Auto-RX sounds like the best option. If there's no risk of making things worse, I'll do it. If it fixes it great if not I'll flick the car on. Its chewing through about 1 litre per 1200kms at the moment. It appears to be worse in traffic then open road.

Seafoam is for 2 stroke outboards lol, no idea about Auto-RX. The problem with cleaners is they tend to lift up the sludge which then blocks the strainer and eventually runs the bearings. If the engine has no sludge, then go for it, as long as you don't over do it.

I think if the consumption is not so bad, switch to high quality 0W30 or similar and do 5k oil changes.

[ptrain]

Yeah but seafoam still seems to have allot of fans across the Pacific. The science behind it is suspect... There's no solvents in it! I'll do some more research maybe give the auto Rx a go.

Why do you think a lighter oil? I was thinking a heavier quality 10-30w or 10-40w would be better? Currently using a 5-40w. Would a lighter oil not result in more oil getting trapped and then burned? Or are you thinking if the drain holes are not fully blocked, then it will pass through more easily?

That's again!

[sergei]

Yeah but seafoam still seems to have allot of fans across the Pacific. The science behind it is suspect... There's no solvents in it! I'll do some more research maybe give the auto Rx a go.

Why do you think a lighter oil? I was thinking a heavier quality 10-30w or 10-40w would be better? Currently using a 5-40w. Would a lighter oil not result in more oil getting trapped and then burned? Or are you thinking if the drain holes are not fully blocked, then it will pass through more easily?

That's again!

At operating temperatures there is no significant difference between 0w30 and 10w30 in viscosity.
What matters more is the chemistry, while in most cases 10w30 will be a refined mineral oil based with synthetic additive, the 0w30 will be 100% (or close to) synthetic. The mineral oil tends to form gunk and varnish as it is a collection of random hydrocarbons with similar melting and boiling points, some of them tend to form varnish, some of them tend to form carbon deposits and others evaporate. The synthetic oil is more consistent blend, and if it is group V, it will be an almost homogeneous ester mixture (with some detergent, seal conditioning and other additives).

The lower weight also helps with it getting in and dissolving varnishes where heavier oils cannot get to. It also will be easier to for barely functioning oil control ring to scrape it off and drain it through reduced orifices.

Here is some interesting article on ester based oils: https://bobistheoilguy.com/esters-in-sy ... ubricants/

As a side note regarding viscosities:
at operating temperature (100'C) these oils will have similar viscosities: 0W40, 5W40, 10W40 and 15W40.
at warm up temperature (40'C) these oils will have similar viscosities: 0W20, 0W30, 0W40 and somewhat rare 0W50 (to a degree).

[Bling]

Obviously I can't comment on potential problems associated with oil consumption. But oil is relatively cheap, I wouldn't sell it, i'd just top the oil up ever few weeks. Used to do the same with my old car, it would use a 4L between 5,000km services. Problems probably only happen when you don't keep the oil level correct. I never ran any cleaning products due to fear of clogging everything up with chucks of crud. I knew the engine had been neglected in Japan (not till down the track of course).

[ptrain]

Little update on this,

I drove drove from Auckland to Palmerston North Easter weekend. Topped it up before I left to the full line.
When I arrived it had dropped about a 1/4 from full after about 700km of fairly steady driving.
I dropped into repco in Palmy and bought some penrite total system cleaner popped it in the tank and filled the car with petrol. Drove back to Auckland and it hadn't lost a drop as far as i could tell. An improvement on the face of it.

My missus has been driving it to work about 40kms round trip in moderate trafffic this last week. I'll check and see where its at now after that when i get a chance.

I've also seen some stuff as i chase this online, it seems that there are alot of 2azfe engines have this and a lot that have no issue at all. One theory that's gaining more weight in my mind is that is the car is filled with mineral oil for a service interval or 2, 3, 4 whatever. This causes the issue, or the issue occurs when people switch back to a synthetic as per Toyotas spec.
Mine appears to be well maintained but the garage that imported it wasnt the most reputable looking place. They did promise the used Castrol Edge in it when i bought it, but I am wondering....
It may also have something to do with the type of driving its doing, motorway vs urban.

Some people have noted success with engine treatments and flushes (seafoam, autoRX, and Marvel Mystery Oil, etc). Interestingly, I noticed Oil changers offering their flush services on special this month. One of the main benefits they claim is to clear out gunk left by mineral based oils in engines meant for full synthetics. Has anyone got any experience with this flush thing they do? For 40$ I'm tempted to give it a go... Then try the 0w-30 as Sergei has suggested.

[ptrain]

Just checked the oil the today, took about 500mls to fill it. After about 1000kms.

[BlakeNZ]

from the owner's manual, the 2az takes 1 to 1.1 litre to go from the 'add' line to the 'full' line.
did you drive back to auckland?(therefore 1400km?)