ECU for a 3SGTE?

[KiwiMR2]

unichip> hows that work? reprograms ecu or?

It's a piggy back unit. Go to www.unichip.com.au

MR2:



Cheers
KiwiMR2

[fivebob]

If you can use stock sensors etc and only need to solder new plugs onto the end of the old loom, then it would be much more affordable then I said.

Arrrghhhh, don't solder automotive wiring unless you want it fail or it is well supported in a vibration free environment. Crimping is the only sensible way to do automotive wiring.

Also for the $1,500 + I saved by buying a Microtech I can do modifications that will yield more gain than I would have seen by buying a more expensive ECU.

So I take it that the Microtech will do distributorless ignition (four coils or two?), but how about staged injectors, Boost control (gear/speed dependent), Water injection control, intercooler spray, thermo fans, traction control, launch control, flat shifting, data logging, EGT, etc etc?

Or does it run out of spare outputs before you get very far?

There's much more to the cost of ownership than just the purchase price, if you buy an ECU that's at it's limits just controlling the basic things then you end up spending more than the expensive ECU because you have to by add on items.

As for the downsides, one of them, which was apparently wrong, was the extra work involved in install, and other than that it's cost.

IMHO neither of these are true, there's little or no extra work involved in the install and there's no real cost difference if you want to do anything beyond thebasic, in fact a Motec can work out cheaper if you use it's features.

I'm sure it's great to not have to worry about how much something costs and buy the best of everything, but personally I don't have an unlimited budget, and I can't justify throwing more than $3K at a car for an ECU.

And you're implying that I do have an unlimited budget? I don't, however I do careful evaluation of the cost of ownership over the lifetime of the item I'm purchasing and I believe the Motec will work out cheaper in the long term. Granted the inital outlay is a bit more than most, but as I can use it in many vehicles and it's still state of the art, and if I ever come to sell it the market for used Motecs is quite good so I will lose very little.

What gets me is people will spend silly money on useless bodywork, BOVs, exhaust systems, Turbos etc, but when it comes to the ECU they try to go as cheap as possible, and often end up spending more cause they have to rebuild a motor or even from something as simple as increased fuel consumption

BTW whay has no one mentiond the Hydra Nemesis it's proabaly the best of the cheaper ECU's for a 3S-GTE

[Mr Revhead]

What gets me is people will spend silly money on useless bodywork, BOVs, exhaust systems, Turbos etc, but when it comes to the ECU they try to go as cheap as possible, and often end up spending more cause they have to rebuild a motor or even from something as simple as increased fuel consumption

now theres a good point

[Al]

BTW whay has no one mentiond the Hydra Nemesis it's proabaly the best of the cheaper ECU's for a 3S-GTE

Agreed. Comes with a nice base tune as well.

[Mr Revhead]

just looked at the hydra page. never heard of it, and im a n00b at full ecu's. but that looks good..... whats the feed back like on them?
i wonder if they plan to do other ecu's...

[Malcolm]

So I take it that the Microtech will do distributorless ignition (four coils or two?), but how about staged injectors, Boost control (gear/speed dependent), Water injection control, intercooler spray, thermo fans, traction control, launch control, flat shifting, data logging, EGT, etc etc?

Ok, distributorless ignition, yes, staged injectors? not sure, boost control yes (but pretty basic), water injection now, intercooler spray no, fans yes, traction control no, launch control yes, flat shifting yes, datalogging yes, EGT no.

Or does it run out of spare outputs before you get very far?

Yes, although they have just released the LT10 which has 4(?) outputs. The point is however, that most people don't need all the additional features that the Motec has. Granted, it is certainly the best ECU that I've heard of, there may be better out there, but it's definitely right at the top.

There's much more to the cost of ownership than just the purchase price, if you buy an ECU that's at it's limits just controlling the basic things then you end up spending more than the expensive ECU because you have to by add on items.

This is definitely true, however the only feature that the Microtech doesn't have, that I'm going to have to find another solution for, is boost control. Personally I don't feel that intelligent boost control would justify the extra expense of a Motec, sure if I was planning to run 600hp+ then it would be on the shortlist for ECU's but for most people, the extra features of a Motec would never be utilised, and certainly not to the point to offset the cost of the unit.

there's no real cost difference if you want to do anything beyond thebasic, in fact a Motec can work out cheaper if you use it's features.

You'd have to be buying a lot of extra electronics for that to be true



I stand by my opinion that a Motec is unnecessary for the majority of people looking to upgrade their ECU's. It's definitely right up there for more demanding uses, but for your average modifier who's nearing the limits of their stock ECU, a Microtech, Link, or similar, if properly tuned and installed, will do a perfectly good job, and the money saved can be put towards other modifications, to improve reliability and/or power, more than you would if you spent the extra on a Motec.

Having said that there are quite a number of different Motec models, which I'm currently reading through for educational purposes.

[matt dunn]

Haing run a Motec M800 for four years I have yet to discover any downside.

Is there a reason you went M800 over M600?
From the info they have sent me the only difference is 8 coils/injectors over 6 coils/injectors. Do you run it on a V8 or is it better for another reason?

Matt

[fivebob]

Haing run a Motec M800 for four years I have yet to discover any downside.

Is there a reason you went M800 over M600?
From the info they have sent me the only difference is 8 coils/injectors over 6 coils/injectors. Do you run it on a V8 or is it better for another reason?

I got it because they didn't make the M400/600 at the time. When I purchased it the M800 had only just been released. However I'm glad that I did buy the M800 as I can now take it out of the MR2 and put it in the Ferrari, and fit an M400 in the MR2

Apart from more logging memory (1mb vs 512kb), on an engine with fewer cylinders the only advantage that the M800 has over the M400/M600 is that the spare Injector/Ignition outputs can be used for Auxillary outputs, but as there are 8 spare outputs this isn't really necessary for most applications.

[matt dunn]

Thanks for that.

Thats what we thought.

Pretty sure that we will be ordering the M600 tomorrrow.

Matt

[Tukumi]

We have had great success running 3SGTE's with Link Products - both LinkPlus and LEM V5. At the moment, we're tuning a Gen IV Caldina motor with a LinkPlus in a rally car.

It pains me to hear uninformed people say things like "Oh you'll make 5% more with a MoTeC than a 'Brand X' computer" - and especially to hear people making comments about the level of power certain computers can 'handle'. Ben Diggles, for example, (S12 FJ20 - around 700hp) does pretty well with a LinkPlus - as does the "formerly known as Quest4" Corona, and there are a wealth of rotaries in australia running MicroTech.

So I take it that the Microtech will do distributorless ignition (four coils or two?), but how about staged injectors, Boost control (gear/speed dependent), Water injection control, intercooler spray, thermo fans, traction control, launch control, flat shifting, data logging, EGT, etc etc?

Or does it run out of spare outputs before you get very far?

Yes, the current LinkPlus will do: distributorless ignition, staged inj, boost control, water spray, thermo fans, launch control, flat shifting, and how about that closed loop knock?

Basically, I will not argue that a MoTeC is a superior system, however 1) you definitely pay for this in installation and tuning and 2) 95% of people are not in race teams so will not need the additional features: Therefore I believe both Link and MicroTech offer much better value for money.

We regularly quote around $2200 + GST to install a base Link LEM V5 (staged inj, boost/idle control, mappable up to 22psi) - that INCLUDES price of computer AND 2wd dyno tune! Um, don't M400's cost that for the computer alone? Then it costs several thousand for the install and tune - I have personally heard the stories.

Don't get me wrong, for the right people we reccomend MoTeC - but for the vast majority we reccomend a better value for money option.

And at the end of the day, you have to have a computer that your tuner is competent with.

Cheers

Nick
NZEFI - Performance Tuning and Development

[fivebob]

Yes, the current LinkPlus will do: distributorless ignition, staged inj, boost control, water spray, thermo fans, launch control, flat shifting, and how about that closed loop knock?

I can see you've left out water injection, traction control, EGT, data logging not to mention the etc,etc. which was the whole point of my original question. Not what it can do but what it can't, and I can see from the Link manual there's a lot it can't do like low impedance injectors, gear/speed dependent boost control, handle more than 2 bar boost, control end (or start) of injection timing to any useful degree, run coils requiring <2ms dwell, etc etc, the list is long and varied.

Granted the Motec cannot do everything that the link can, but that list is very short and I leave those more familiar with the link to explain what those shortcomings are.

1) you definitely pay for this in installation and tuning

So the fact that it cost me no more for install on tuning on my Motec is impossible then. Of course I the fact that I did it all myself without the aid of any "tuner" might account for that miracle

Hmm only five more impossible things this morning and I can round it off with breakfast at Milliways

2) 95% of people are not in race teams so will not need the additional features: Therefore I believe both Link and MicroTech offer much better value for money.

So features like flash upgradeability, free software updates, 24hr support and low depreciation are of no benefit to the average consumer then?

Not to mention things like in car boost, fuel, and ignition control, or even traction control, data logging (including, EGTs, oil pressure/tem, fuel pressure/temp etc), shift lights . You're right they're of no use to the average consumer, they should just buy these as a separate add-on shouldn't they?

But what about things like the very comprehensive diagnostics facility, individual cylinder trim for fuel and ignition, multiple fuel & ignition compensations, Auto gearbox shifting, warning lights, speed limiting etc, that can't practically be controlled by anything other than the ECU.

Then there's the optional Motec add-ons like VVT, Drive by wire Throttle, even an interface for the Subaru diff controller. Surely some of this has got to be useful for the average consumer.

BTW what is your definition of average? Granted the average Toyspeeder with a 1980's or cheap 1990's car might not want these features, but I'll bet that if they were available on the "cheaper " ECU's they'd use most of them and be very grateful that they had purchased such a wonderful device.

We regularly quote around $2200 + GST to install a base Link LEM V5 (staged inj, boost/idle control, mappable up to 22psi) - that INCLUDES price of computer AND 2wd dyno tune! Um, don't M400's cost that for the computer alone? Then it costs several thousand for the install and tune - I have personally heard the stories.

Granted some installers use the Motec brand name to charge like the proverbial wounded bull and that's no doubt where the "expensive" reputation of Motec comes from, but I've heard stories like blown engines resulting from poor engine control, lost HP when switching to a Link etc etc, but let's not go there because we've all heard "stories" but at best most are 2nd hand and for every story there's another one that says the exact opposite, like my cheap install, but that's not 2nd hand info

Don't forget the Motec Plug & play systems for the likes of the WRX & EVO-8, which cost around $1800, so they do have a cheaper alternative for some cars, just no Toyotas

Don't get me wrong, for the right people we reccomend MoTeC - but for the vast majority we reccomend a better value for money option.

Like the PowerFC or perchance the Nemesis, certainly represent excellent value for money for the 3S-GTE, at the risk of offending some, I would state that IMHO both these systems represent better value for money than a Link, but then again I have no axe to grind, I don't sell, install or tune any of these systems for profit, just for my own amusement

And at the end of the day, you have to have a computer that your tuner is competent with.

Or take the route of tuning it yourself, learn the same way the "pros" did, by trial and error . You may find it's not as hard as you think, and IMHO certainly a lot more satisfying when you see the results.

Yes folks it's true, the average "tuner" knew little or nothing about EMS's before they tuned their first one. They are not some all powerful gods to be bowed down to and offered up homage from you wallet. You can do it yourself and it's a hell of a lot easier than a lot of the mechanical jobs that amatuers think nothing of attempting, like clutch jobs on SW20's,ST185,ST205, ST215 etc, etc.

Hmm maybe I should start up "FiveBob's Tuning School" (or should that be Skool) just to show people how easy it really is to tune an ECU.... Nah bad idea, people are too thick to learn anything new eh? Besides which I don't have the time, or patience, to waste teaching fools what they can learn for themselves

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not anti Link, Microtech, Nemesis, PowerFC or any of the lower priced ECU's, I even own some of them myself, almost any ECU is better than the stock system when you modify an engine. What I am against is people who don't do the research properly, or have an axe to grind because they sell one of these cheaper systems, and come up with the Standard lines of "Brand X is as good as ....", or "most people will never use those features", or "It's harder to tune" etc etc. All of which IMHO are wrong and if people would take the time to look at things in an analytical manner they would soon be able to see what is of benefit to them, and what is not.

Maybe it's because I evaluate software & hardware for a living that I came to my conclusions, maybe it's because I have more money than sense. I don't know, but I do know what the various systems will do and what they won't, and I base my value for money on an oft misunderstood concept of "total cost of ownership".

I'm happy with my choice of Motec, PowerFC, and soon to be Nemesis systems for the cars in which they are/will be installed in. Unless they improve the software and features of the Link I can't see one of those in my future, I can see a couple of more Motecs though.

Enough of this diatribe, I've just been asked my independent opinion on fitting an ECU to a Koenig Turbo 308 Ferrari, perhaps I should tell them a Link is all they need

[Tukumi]

Ha When you've spent that much on a car...

We could argue round in circles about this all day, all I am trying to get across is that Link and MicroTech are more than enough computer for most people.

You would be surprised (or perhaps not after reading a lot of posts on here) but most people actually don't care/don't understand about the intricacies of engine management, such as the actual differences between peak and hold vs ballasting of low impedance injectors; hence I stand by my comment that the majority of the things you have listed are not really necessary for a road car!

Hmm, more than 2 bar boost, how many people run daily drivers on more than 28psi? C'mon, and EGT's, whilst extremely useful for tuning, are not something you *need* to be handled by the computer - the TechEdge system is great for this.

Haha I am not saying that installing/tuning an engine management system is beyond most people, far from it, I do and have done it myself - but most people just don't care to do it themselves!

Boost, fuel, and ignition control are generally part of most aftermarket ECUs, not an add-on. You are correct though in mentioning PowerFC's as they are pretty amazing value, I cannot fathom why they didn't make a wire-in system though!

BTW what is your definition of average? Granted the average Toyspeeder with a 1980's or cheap 1990's car might not want these features, but I'll bet that if they were available on the "cheaper " ECU's they'd use most of them and be very grateful that they had purchased such a wonderful device.

I don't doubt it.... HAHA my definition of average is NOT an engineer who installs and tunes their own engine management system OR someone with the vast experience in tuning that YOU obviously have!!!

Yes, the Nemesis looks like an interesting system, especially being plugin.

Don't get me wrong either, Link's have their flaws (although hopefully soon remedied in the new platform) and I am not disputing that a MoTeC is a superior system (but not for the money!), but it really gets up my wick in cases like this because people read threads like these and form the opinion that "you obviously can't run a 3SGTE on anything less than an M400"

On a related note, I always find it amusing when people base their ECU purchases on reading about a racecar with a given ECU - its obvious that making (peak) power is the easy bit (you could do that with a batch-fired, distributed computer!), no matter what brand of computer, but making it driveable and the additional options are what separates the men from the boys.

Cheers

Nick

[fivebob]

You would be surprised (or perhaps not after reading a lot of posts on here) but most people actually don't care/don't understand about the intricacies of engine management, such as the actual differences between peak and hold vs ballasting of low impedance injectors; hence I stand by my comment that the majority of the things you have listed are not really necessary for a road car!

There we'll have to agree to disagree, just because people don't know the difference doesn’t mean it's not useful or even desirable on a street driven car.

I find it somewhat sad that people don't bother to educate themselves on the features of one of the most useful tuning devices in the automotive world. I suppose they prefer the Bling Bling of a grossly mismatched turbo, or even, dare I say it, see neons as a performance add-on... By the time they figure out that the EMS is the most important tool in engine modification available today, they've wasted far more that the cost of a Motec on crap that's caused them grief.

Hmm, more than 2 bar boost, how many people run daily drivers on more than 28psi?

I take it you've not spent much time on the US MR2 boards then, but yes on a daily driver 2Bar is a bit on the high side.

C'mon, and EGT's, whilst extremely useful for tuning, are not something you *need* to be handled by the computer - the TechEdge system is great for this.

Yes, but at an additional cost, which comes to my point about total cost of ownership. Each of these features costs more if your ECU doesn't support them, and you end up running a lot of add on black boxes, especially if you want separate EGT's on each cylinder.

On the Motec you could use the EGT to trigger a warning light, additional water injection, lower boost etc etc so it's more than just a tuning tool. Besides that I know of quite a few people who run EGT gauges on their cars, and then obsess about the readings, pointless I know but....

Haha I am not saying that installing/tuning an engine management system is beyond most people, far from it, I do and have done it myself - but most people just don't care to do it themselves!

Boost, fuel, and ignition control are generally part of most aftermarket ECUs, not an add-on.

Again my point is about the quality of these features, rudimentary boost control can be done with a bleed valve, but if you want features like gear or speed dependent boost control, or emulate factory features like lowering boost when the engine is cold, or even in car boost control not many ECU's will cater for this. If you want to buy an aftermarket controller, like the Blitz DSBC & Power meter, it costs a lot of money to get just one of these features. By the time you've bought the Link/Microtech and the boost controller you could easily spend more than the Motec. Again it's all about "total cost of ownership".

I won't bother getting deeply into the refinements in fuel and ignition control, it's all been covered before, but features like individual cylinder trims for unbalanced intakes, or the ability to alter ignition timing based on factors such as intake temp are all useful for street tune and all add to the reliability of the engine. Even the most vocal critics of the cost of a Motec would agree it's cheaper than an engine rebuild.

You are correct though in mentioning PowerFC's as they are pretty amazing value, I cannot fathom why they didn't make a wire-in system though!

Simple, their market is Japan, where plug and play is king and theirs far better unit already available in the wire in market so why waste product development time.

HAHA my definition of average is NOT an engineer who installs and tunes their own engine management system OR someone with the vast experience in tuning that YOU obviously have!!!

Careful now, you shouldn't make assumptions

My first exposure to EMS tuning (other than do some debugging on the PROM code in a Sierra Cosworth in the 80's) was my M800 install. I'm not an engineer, nor do I have vast experience. I do however pride myself on doing thorough research and understanding what I am doing before I start such a project. I suppose it also helps that I have a very good knowledge of the infernal combustion engine, and can read and understand most of Prof. Gordon Blair's "Design and Simulation of Four Stroke Engines"

Yes, the Nemesis looks like an interesting system, especially being plugin.

Actually it's wire-in with and adaptor board that can be used to make any ECU Plug & Play on the Gen II & III 3S-GTE's, but still a nice system with a lot of good features. I'll admit I was sceptical when it was released, mainly because there was far too much hype before it’s' release, but looking at the completed product it seems to be a well rounded system.

Still don't like the return to base EPROM upgrade though, but that flaw exists in a lot of ECUs, you’ve got to remove some nice features to get the cost down, too bad it's $100 per upgrade & several days downtime (or weeks if you're overseas) and the risk of damaging/losing your ECU each time. Now what's that phrase again, that's right total cost of ownership catchy isn't it

Don't get me wrong either, Link's have their flaws (although hopefully soon remedied in the new platform) and I am not disputing that a MoTeC is a superior system (but not for the money!), but it really gets up my wick in cases like this because people read threads like these and form the opinion that "you obviously can't run a 3SGTE on anything less than an M400"

Can’t agree about the Motec not being superior for the money, but then again I have a different view of the real cost of such things than most.

3S-GTEs have some problems that require some features not found in lower cost ECUs to solve. One of which is the radical changes in VE at certain points in the rev range. If you can't insert higher resolution areas in the part of the map that is affected, then tuning becomes a PITA. After all, who wants the whole map to be in 100rpm increments even if you have enough entries to do this? I'm not saying you need an M400 for your average street tune, but I for one would feel a lot happier with one on a high HP 3S-GTE, especially if it's controlling the Water injection, has ignition compensations for air temp and all those other lovely features that you'll never use in the street

On a related note, I always find it amusing when people base their ECU purchases on reading about a racecar with a given ECU - its obvious that making (peak) power is the easy bit (you could do that with a batch-fired, distributed computer!), no matter what brand of computer, but making it driveable and the additional options are what separates the men from the boys.

Couldn't agree more, drivability is far more important, but peak power sells. Totally meaningless except in a pissing contest, but petrolheads aren't known for their discerning intellect. I've seen quite a few cars with high HP that the owners soon tired of because they weren't fun to drive. Personally I prefer to upgrade the handling and driveability before going for the HP boost, but that's a whole other story.

[RedMist]

Fivebob,
The Motec is undeniably a good ECU. However attempting to sway someone into purchase of a product based on features that they are unlikely to use isn’t prudent. Especially as most of those listed features are chargeable options on the M400-M600.
My belief is that an ECU should be evaluated using a cost needs analysis. You shouldn’t push one ECU as the be all and end all for engine / trans control for all users. For instance the Motec M800 is useless for my needs. It doesn’t have enough inputs (suspension pots), has very limited data logging, won't trigger my trans the way I want it to, wont trigger my bypass shocks, doesn’t have serial input for GPS, wont accept G sensors, and doesn’t do WiFi.

So my solution, Genboard. More power, open source, 1/5th the price. In addition my logger is 128mb and expandable via CF, has its own processor, display, audio, runs Java, and cost me $125.
Saying that its a very technical solution that I wouldn’t recommend to anyone who cant programme in C and rifle through a tonne of rubbishy documentation.

Likewise there are solutions in which the Link and Link Plus work wonderfully. My Bunderson (Baja desert race car) runs very well on a simple Link LEM4. It's attached to a 4age (167bhp at the wheels) runs everything I currently need including out of bounds alerts, two shift lights (one "wake up", one shift), wasted spark, and gives me a nice power curve considering the massive cams.

[mister2]

sorry, i was posting under phils account

find it somewhat sad that people don't bother to educate themselves on the features of one of the most useful tuning devices in the automotive world. I suppose they prefer the Bling Bling of a grossly mismatched turbo, or even, dare I say it, see neons as a performance add-on... By the time they figure out that the EMS is the most important tool in engine modification available today, they've wasted far more that the cost of a Motec on crap that's caused them grief.

Too true.

Again my point is about the quality of these features, rudimentary boost control can be done with a bleed valve, but if you want features like gear or speed dependent boost control, or emulate factory features like lowering boost when the engine is cold, or even in car boost control not many ECU's will cater for this. If you want to buy an aftermarket controller, like the Blitz DSBC & Power meter, it costs a lot of money to get just one of these features. By the time you've bought the Link/Microtech and the boost controller you could easily spend more than the Motec. Again it's all about "total cost of ownership".

Aha, that is one thing that Link at least can do decently, using a boost control solenoid.

Careful now, you shouldn't make assumptions

My first exposure to EMS tuning (other than do some debugging on the PROM code in a Sierra Cosworth in the 80's) was my M800 install. I'm not an engineer, nor do I have vast experience. I do however pride myself on doing thorough research and understanding what I am doing before I start such a project. I suppose it also helps that I have a very good knowledge of the infernal combustion engine, and can read and understand most of Prof. Gordon Blair's "Design and Simulation of Four Stroke Engines"

Hahaha I wasn't assuming you were an engine management engineer - you have said software analyst... and reading Blair's book alone probably qualifies you more than most. I like his treatment of unsteady gas flow, and found his 2 Stroke book very interesting. What I find amazing is with the wealth of information available these days (even the NACA repository is on the web! and SAE articles! and mech eng libraries) that people still rely on 2nd hand information off forums

So can we agree that the answer to "What ECU for my 3SGTE??" is "It depends upon your budget!!"

Cheers

Nick
NZEFI - Performance Tuning and Development

[qikgt4]

Wow thanks for all the advice guys, seems like ive got myself some thinking to do

[fivebob]

Fivebob,
The Motec is undeniably a good ECU. However attempting to sway someone into purchase of a product based on features that they are unlikely to use isn’t prudent. Especially as most of those listed features are chargeable options on the M400-M600.

I'm not attempting to sway anyone to purchase a Motec, merely pointing out that it's not as expensive in the long run. I long ago gave up trying to argue that everyone should buy a Motec, people don't have the understanding of what something really costs, and what features are really useful on an EMS. I only post on threads such as these because I get thoroughly sick and tired of the BS arguments based on purchase cost, or that monumental myth that Motec is hard to tune, or the other myth that you won't use half the functionality of a Motec in a street diven car. If I didn't post then this BS might obtain the usual urban legend status.

As for the features I've quoted being chargeable options, most of the examples I've used are available with the standard ECU standard, some require the Advanced Options upgrade (Traction control, Anti-Lag, Staged Injection & Flat shifting) and Logging is an upgrade as well, though you do get 5Hrs free logging and Wideband Lambda for initial tuning.

My belief is that an ECU should be evaluated using a cost needs analysis.

Yes, but that can be false economy if you only consider the job at hand, and then have to upgrade if your needs change (providing an upgrade is available that doesn't mean a completely new system)

You shouldn’t push one ECU as the be all and end all for engine / trans control for all users. For instance the Motec M800 is useless for my needs. It doesn’t have enough inputs (suspension pots), has very limited data logging, won't trigger my trans the way I want it to, wont trigger my bypass shocks, doesn’t have serial input for GPS, wont accept G sensors, and doesn’t do WiFi.

That's a case of not selecting the right tool for the job, It's an ECU not a datalogger and I wouldn't expect it to do most of those things, but I see you still haven't fully understood the capabilities as the M800 can support G sensors, and I'd hazard a guess that it'd do far more of the things you want than any of the other ECU's mentioned, how far would the Link go to doing the job.

However if you selected the right tool, like dare I say it, the Motec ADL and/or remote dash logger you'd have all that (except WiFi which is not what I'd consider reliable technology for an automotive environment)

Saying that its a very technical solution that I wouldn’t recommend to anyone who cant programme in C and rifle through a tonne of rubbishy documentation.

Yeah, I can just imagine the average petrolhead doing that

Like I keep saying, it's all about total cost of ownership, I will use my M800 & ADL for all my future applications at no additional cost, except for wiring. I don't foresee a time where it won't have the power to do the job at hand, If I'd purchased a Link, then I'd be looking fo a new ECU right now for the 308, I'm sure my choice would be somewhat limited.

No ever regretted buying quality, but history is littered with people dissatisfied becasue the bought on cost alone.

[fivebob]

Aha, that is one thing that Link at least can do decently, using a boost control solenoid.

Gear/Speed Dependent? Lower Boost on a cold engine? In Car boost control? I didn't see any of those features listed in the Link software.

Hahaha I wasn't assuming you were an engine management engineer - you have said software analyst... and reading Blair's book alone probably qualifies you more than most. I like his treatment of unsteady gas flow, and found his 2 Stroke book very interesting.

Where's that slap around the ears emoticon when you need it Software analyst indeed.. just so theres no misunderstanding as to what I do when I'm not playing with cars and my other toys, for most of the last 30 years I've been a Systems Programmer and Consultant. That means I write low level software like operating systems, compilers, device drivers, comms & security software and the like, and also evaluate and recommend these sort of products and their use to my clients.

Anyway I was more refering to the "Vast Experience" comment. I didn't have that when I did my first install, but by approaching in a methodical manner it wasn''t as hard as most people portray it to be.

What I find amazing is with the wealth of information available these days (even the NACA repository is on the web! and SAE articles! and mech eng libraries) that people still rely on 2nd hand information off forums

Ain't that the truth, and what's more amazing is that even when people post the correct info, with facts to back it up (450HP CT26's comes to mind), people still chose to believe the myths. Some people just can't be helped I guess

So can we agree that the answer to "What ECU for my 3SGTE??" is "It depends upon your budget!!"

Of course, but with the proviso that you realise the limitations of budgeting to low and not taking into account possible future expenses because the systems doesn't do what you require it to do. You know that "Total cost of ownership" thing

Anyway I'm done with this thread, can't see that there's much left unsaid. It's been refreshing to have what in most parts has been a logical and rational debate on Toyspeed, makes for a nice change.

[mister2]

Gear/Speed Dependent? Lower Boost on a cold engine? In Car boost control? I didn't see any of those features listed in the Link software.

Well neither of the first two, but In car boost control. However the other two are in the pipeline...

Of course, but with the proviso that you realise the limitations of budgeting to low and not taking into account possible future expenses because the systems doesn't do what you require it to do. You know that "Total cost of ownership" thing

I thought that would be the caveat on agreement Its clear we're talking about different markets.

The MoTeC ADL is (again) a great piece of kit... for the price. Don't you find it a little galling that when you upgrade it is simply a code in the mail?
Anyway, you'll have to check out the LinkDash once I've finished it in a month or so

Wow thanks for all the advice guys, seems like ive got myself some thinking to do

You're most welcome to come in and have a chat about your options - I think we may have been the people who talked to you at the 4&R's - as we have a 3SGTE powered EP92 in the shop at the moment.

Cheers

Nick
NZEFI - Performance Tuning and Development
37b Carlyle St www.nzefi.com

[fivebob]

The MoTeC ADL is (again) a great piece of kit... for the price. Don't you find it a little galling that when you upgrade it is simply a code in the mail?

No it doesn't, in fact I find that feature quite appealing, even though I bought the ADL fully configured. You're looking at it the wrong way if you find it galling. Consider the alternatives, either you pay a much higher prices at the start for features you don't need, or in case like telemetry make no sense on a street car, or you have to send the unit in for PROM upgrades and all the hassle that entails. The way Motec do it makes the unit cheaper for those that don't use all the features, without inconvienencing those that want them at a later date.

Anyway, you'll have to check out the LinkDash once I've finished it in a month or so

Isn't that market, especially the bottom end of it, becoming somewhat flooded right now? There's been at least 10 new units released in the last year. Although I note that a lot of them are just dash displays, with no logging capabilities or logic and output functions like the ADL.
FWIW I bought the ADL for it's logging, logic and output functions, not the display, though that will come in use in the race car When I tuned the M800 I used the dash for some extra logging capacity, and the ease of wiring with the terminal I/O unit, the dash was tucked away in a box where I couldn't see it.