Ignitor for 6cyl wasted spark setup?

[QikStarlie]

didn't think mitsi ones were dwell control either

http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/bosc ... p-230.html
ive gone to the above bosch ones. more robust than the mitsi ones.(shut down rather than crap out if get to hot unlike mitsi ones) have them mounted in a toyota ignitor case. still using mitsi coils

[cat007]

Anyone think these would be ok?

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motor ... 167097.htm

[matt dunn]

That is a coil pack off a V6 commodore.

Quite a common part for use in aftermarket.


No igniters have dwell control in them.

If they have dwell control in them they are a module not an igniter.

And the mitsi ones are definatly igniters.

I use them on everything and as long as you have a decent heat sink and the right paste, they are as good as anything.

[QikStarlie]

is there actually anything wrong with current ignition ? wont gain anything unless its breaking down under high load. even then, first fix would be to gap the plugs down, if they haven't been already

[cat007]

is there actually anything wrong with current ignition ? wont gain anything unless its breaking down under high load. even then, first fix would be to gap the plugs down, if they haven't been already

I'll re-check the plugs again tonight. I'll gap them to 0.7mm (or maybe 0.8mm?), clean them and see what sort of spark it produces.

How much of a role does the ignitor play in a weak spark? Or would that mainly be down to either bad coils, bad H/T leads or the coils having a bad earth?

[QikStarlie]

from what ive found, they are usually a work, or not work at all kinda thing. so doubt will be cause of weak spark. isnt really such thing as a "performance" ignitor.

ignitors are the ground for the coils. so make sure the are earthed well. misti ones have a ground wire. toyota ones ground through the case.

yeh usually leads,coils, plugs will be weak spark. another cause can be too little dwell time if your running aftermarket ecu. usually 3-4ms is ok for wasted spark coils. too little dwell will result in weak spark. too much will melt your coils or ignitor

[cat007]

from what ive found, they are usually a work, or not work at all kinda thing. so doubt will be cause of weak spark. isnt really such thing as a "performance" ignitor.

ignitors are the ground for the coils. so make sure the are earthed well. misti ones have a ground wire. toyota ones ground through the case.

yeh usually leads,coils, plugs will be weak spark. another cause can be too little dwell time if your running aftermarket ecu. usually 3-4ms is ok for wasted spark coils. too little dwell will result in weak spark. too much will melt your coils or ignitor

Hmmmm well my dwell is set to 2.125ms. Maybe that's a bit low?

Ran out of time tonight so I'll check the spark plug gap tomorrow and make sure there's clean and check what sort of spark each plug is producing.

[strx7]

think i run 3.0ms or a tad longer on my mitsi ones. rx7 coils need 4-4.5ms

[cat007]

think i run 3.0ms or a tad longer on my mitsi ones. rx7 coils need 4-4.5ms

Ok so I tested the spark on each output of the coils and they all appear to be putting out the same pissy spark. I tried changing the dwell from what it's always been 2.125ms to 3ms and then 3.5ms and there didn't appear to be any change.

What I did notice however, was the first spark as soon as I turn the key, is pretty powerful and what I would like all the rest to be like, but after the first spark, the rest are crap. I wonder if this BIG initial spark is one of the causes for when it somethings fires against the starter?

The video is a little deceiving as the sparks look better in the video than they do in real life, and you can't see the initial big spark for some reason.

Take a look and let me know what you think:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zypg2izYHE8

[cat007]

I should note that's a 0.7mm (0.028") gap on the plug.

Also forgot to add - the coils are getting full 12.4v on terminal 1 and also 0.99volts on terminal 2....is that normal?

[strx7]

most aftermarket ecu's fire the coils when you first power it up, you can bypass this by putting your coils on a seperate power feed and turn your ecu on, then your coils, that way you can turn your coils off to stop the car. and also handy for trying to diagnose faults as you wont be trying to burn our your ignitor for having your ignition on but not running for a period of time.

if you dont gain spark power from having a longer dwell you'll only heat up the ignitor.

[cat007]

most aftermarket ecu's fire the coils when you first power it up, you can bypass this by putting your coils on a seperate power feed and turn your ecu on, then your coils, that way you can turn your coils off to stop the car. and also handy for trying to diagnose faults as you wont be trying to burn our your ignitor for having your ignition on but not running for a period of time.

if you dont gain spark power from having a longer dwell you'll only heat up the ignitor.

Ah ok - so I'll put the dwell back to 2.125ms then I guess - if there's no gain by increasing it.

So what then could be causing a weak spark? The plug is new, and I've tried a few. I've tried all 6 leads, all with the same result and then all 3 coils and all 6 poles give the same result. Perhaps the 7M coils are just old and giving up the ghost? They aren't new - came off an old wreck so probably a good 15-20 years old...

[QikStarlie]

so car is actually missing under load yeh?

hard to tell much from the vid. does your ecu compensate for battery voltage? (more dwell with low voltage) if not you wont see full spark when cranking.
better test than looking at plugs, would be to see how much air gap it will jump, mitsi ones will fire a good inch out of the ht lead, to find ground.

you could do a resistance test on the coils, if you can find what they are spose to read.

[cat007]

so car is actually missing under load yeh?

hard to tell much from the vid. does your ecu compensate for battery voltage? (more dwell with low voltage) if not you wont see full spark when cranking.
better test than looking at plugs, would be to see how much air gap it will jump, mitsi ones will fire a good inch out of the ht lead, to find ground.

you could do a resistance test on the coils, if you can find what they are spose to read.

Hey
Yeah car is missing when under load. The car is not drivable so I can't really put it under high load - but just revving it will produce the misfire.

I put a wire in the end of the HT lead and it barely jumps a few mm to a decent earth. I thought a good spark should look something like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNx9YDodgE0

Mine does NOT look like that at all. I'll test it again by turning the CPS by hand so the coils are getting full voltage incase the cranking voltage drop is what might be causing the weak spark. Video to follow

All 3 coils test at 0.4Ohms which is within their limits of 0.3-0.5

[cat007]

And testing the spark with a short length of wire jammed into the HT lead on each coil, produces a spark that wont jump a gap larger than 4-5mm. Which is pretty average if you ask me....?

[mjrstar]

My car developed a miss at about 16psi boost on the toyota coils, $60 worth of second hand mitsi diamante coils and have not had any spark issues since..

[QikStarlie]

yeh that's pretty sh1t . try some different coils. seem weird that all 3 coils are the same though.

[cat007]

My car developed a miss at about 16psi boost on the toyota coils, $60 worth of second hand mitsi diamante coils and have not had any spark issues since..

Yeah thinking of getting a new set of either Bosch ones, although they're probably going to be pretty pricey....Leaning towards these ones still:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing ... =347167097

yeh that's pretty sh1t . try some different coils. seem weird that all 3 coils are the same though.

Yeah it does seem VERY odd that all 3 coils have packed in. Perhaps though, 1 was poor from the start and the other 2 have died over the past few years...?

[cat007]

Ok here's an update
Took out all the plugs, cleaned them so they were shinny and new, gapped them to 0.7mm - re-installed them - after a fairly long time I was able to get it to start. Once started I held the revs at about 4,000rpm for a good 30 seconds, then switched the key off.
Took all the plugs out and here's the result

Plug 1:



Pug 2:



Plug 3:



Plug 4:



Plug 5:



Plug 6:

[QikStarlie]

rich. but need to get car to operating temp, before looking at the plugs is of any use.

another coil option.
http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/ign6 ... p-430.html

or pick a part some mitsti v6 ones?