Engine Seizing Issue

[328FTW]

It'll "seize" Can't turn over easy (by hand or starter if you can shift it at all) and shifting up and dumping the clutch results in it dragging the car to a halt as if you did a hard downshift due the the engine resisting HARD to turning over. Give it 20 minutes and crank then it'll reluctantly spin and fire but DANG DANG DANG DANG

I'll post up a pic of the crank of one motor, no remote filter, it's in the stock place on the block






Not the best pics I know but they were just on my account. Basically it looks just like if you copper plated the crank.

[MAGN1T]

How do the sides of the pistons look?

Steve

[328FTW]

They looked alright last motor, normal wear.

However I'll pull this one apart and look at EVERYTHING really closely. Prior to this I could attribute it to other things but this time there was just no good reason other than something is really wrong here

[allencr]

...this time there was just no good reason other than something is really wrong here

All aluminum or a performance bearing with very thin layers of tin/babbitt/indium/copper & almost all steel backing can weld themselves. I don't think that a stock or those usually sold as 'performance bearings' could do it.

Sorry, I still don't know the reason either but I'm pretty sure of one thing, it is something that you have done and only you have done! IIRC these symptoms have have never been described before now.

[Mr Revhead]

Ok, so you are taking known good running longblocks, putting a turbo etc on them and in very short time they seize?

Have we established exactly what way they are seizing? I'm reading bearings and piston expansion, which are caused by different things...

[328FTW]

Ok, so you are taking known good running longblocks, putting a turbo etc on them and in very short time they seize?

Have we established exactly what way they are seizing? I'm reading bearings and piston expansion, which are caused by different things...

Yep good longblocks, rapid seizure under prolonged load, blipping in short bursts burned a tank of fuel totally out before going to the track. Get on it for extended time at very high revs and bad things happen.


They do seem like things unrelated but when it's something so strange happening it's hard to rule things out. It's just weird, I'm running the chevy this weekend anyway. They may be old pieces of shit but at least they sound good and are easy to diagnose.

[strx7]

before going to the track. Get on it for extended time at very high revs and bad things happen.

looks more and more like oil surge/starvation

[RS13]

Whats' your RPM limit set at? Have you managed to see what the oil pressure gauge is doing as it seizes? You say that the oil filter is in the stock location, so no oil cooler either?

Can't really be anything but oil starvation.. but then, 3SGEs are notorious for running big ends even when looked after, you're slapping a turbo setup onto a tired n/a 3S, throwing it around corners at massive RPM with no modifications to the factory oil system..

[rollaholic]

if it were starvation you'd think you'd still get some death rattle before it shit itself entirely though

[strx7]

you're slapping a turbo setup onto a tired n/a 3S, throwing it around corners at massive RPM with no modifications to the factory oil system..

- sounds like the ideal recipe for disaster doesn't it

[RS13]

if it were starvation you'd think you'd still get some death rattle before it shit itself entirely though

I assume its' in a stripped racecar with loud exhaust.. if you were thrashing it around a track (wearing a helmet too), at 8000rpm you won't hear much if it does go wrong, and if it does go wrong at those sorts of RPMs its' going to happen very quickly. At 8000rpm, if the oil pickup even just gets a momentary gulp of air, or the system gets a drop in pressure, its' game over for the engine.

If there isn't any piston damage, then it won't be the pistons.. galling damage is very obvious. If it were detonation/timing problems to the level Magn1t describes, he'd hear it, it would run like a sack and the top of the piston would look like the surface of the moon. Running bearings at high RPM can only be a lack of oil, or boost spiking which would also damage the piston.

How many RPMs are "very high"? How much boost are you running? Are you seeing at least 10psi oil pressure per 1000rpm? I have seen a similar problem before, older engine though.. 2TGEU with big cams run to 9,000rpm with no oil system modifications, jammed up mid thrash and ran #3 bearing, timing was spot on and no damage to the pistons other than smashed skirts from the crank. If you've raised the factory 3S rpm limit without dialing in the oil pressure to suit then I'd consider that a possible cause of the failures.

[nz_climber]

As said above, run bearings is an oil issue..

Have you done anything to prevent oil surge? Baffled sump? Is the pick up blocked? How full are you filling the sump?

Also being an old engine would probably be a lot of blow by, causing crankcase to pressurise, that in turn might stop oil from head returning to the sump, again causing starvation issues.

Just some other things to think about.

[328FTW]

They compression test good so they didn't seem all that tired. Stock oil system yes and no oil cooler, remember this is the same oil system that non turbo I was hauling ass with. Often hit 9k on downshifts, I gave the car absolute HELL before it was ever turbo. Think full throttle from first gear all the way to 200kph and holding it there at sustained high rpm then hard downshifts. Limiter is currently set at 7500 spark cut not fuel cut so no lean out just lots of backfires. Usually about 70psi at revs so that seem all good.

Just somewhere in what I've done there is a massive massive flaw. It HAS to be something I've done. Or else the biggest coincidence ever in history. There is the turbo feed, turbo drain, tune and the additional stresses. Somewhere in this is my $&#$% up.


One of the times it locked up it was a dead straight road, I'm assuming oil surge is really hard when it is dead straight and downhill. But that non returning issue is a good point nz_climber, I'll give that a look. At high rpm it would take very little air to root a motor.



Just frustrating cause I am surrounded by motors I've built and these epic project cars and my favourite is MIA over something dumb.

[levinguy]

how much money have you spent throwing at standard motors that you've blown up? spend half that on a proper engine you build from scratch with an oil system that will cope with racing.. problem solved?

standard motors aren't designed with boost in mind to be revved excessively around a track, feel free not to listen, but yeah, wait for the i told you so.

to me it seems a bit ridiculous what you expect from a standard non turbo motor in a road going car..

[RS13]

how much money have you spent throwing at standard motors that you've blown up? spend half that on a proper engine you build from scratch with an oil system that will cope with racing.. problem solved?

standard motors aren't designed with boost in mind to be revved excessively around a track, feel free not to listen, but yeah, wait for the i told you so.

to me it seems a bit ridiculous what you expect from a standard non turbo motor in a road going car..

Lol, 3SGEs are a dime a dozen, a mate just picked up an almost complete gen 2 runner for $350 recently with warranty, a lot cheaper than several thousand to build a forged motor!

I'm not saying I don't agree with you, but whats' to say that he builds a forged engine with this turbo/ecu setup, that does the same thing? This is something that needs to be sorted before he can move forward.

[MAGN1T]

There's nothing wrong with stock motors, they get killed by bad tuning/lack of maintainence, as do forged motors.
As for excessive crank pressure and preventing oil drain....you only read that on US forums as it's BS.

As for seizing, I've seized 3 motors, my own fault everytime.
The first 2 were the same ER185. Forgot to top up the 2 stroke bottle.
Bikes don't get big end knock as they use ball /roller bearings.
The 3rd was a 4 stroke a GN400. Forgot to top up the oil in that too.The cam on that got a bit munted, had to smooth off the rocker arms with a grinder & readjust. So lack oil/starvation will screw the cam too.
They all restart after cooling once the piston's shrunk a bit.

Compression tests.....they don't pick up broken ringlands, they're only really good for leaking valves, a big hole in the headgasket or completely worn out rings, or maybe a motor that's been driven for ages with broken ringlands and it's worn a groove in the bore, as they do.

Steve

[allencr]

High RPM & low/no lube take out the all bearing layers and half of its steel backing, you can measure resulting the clearance with a yard stick.
Yet this thing actually seizes & looks the opposite, like a low RPM very high load low lube cause.
The extra load from the turbo is heating up the bearing & crank so much that the stock bearing & side clearances don't give enough oil flow to cool them down, then it gets even hotter till it starts to seize, shutting off the flow almost completely. My WAG.

[Flannelman]

Looking at it, the big end is the last point of call in the crank. The pressure here will be nowhere near what it is in the gallery. In N/A form this is no problem as the force from the conrod isnt enough to push the berring through the oil film and onto the crank surface.

Since its an N/A engine being put into Forced Induction, the load from the rod is now higher, enough to push the berring through the oil film and onto the crank surface. The berring will only get hot under high load.

To fix, thighen berring tolerances or increase oil flow to rod berring surface.

[Mr Revhead]

No difference between 3sge and 3sgte bottom ends so won't be that.


What oil and filters you using?
Where did you take turbo oil feed and gauge feed from? Maybe you took it from wrong place and are starving crank mains

[328FTW]

Like I said it's from the head where the pressure sender goes. And yes it is correct that the 3sge bottom end is the same as the 3sgte. Same tolerances and all, even the same rods but different pistons.

And these motors are worth squat. You can pick them up for $80 a shortblock and the ones up till now have been free cause I've been lucky (yes no maybe) Ringlands have all been good, I've blown ringlands before and am familiar with causes



I'm still taking the turbo off this next motor and will run it as a stock motor on the standalone, there is also a mod that I want to do to the ecu to help reduce phase shift at high rpm. Then I can be more definitive in where the problem is. No one said racing is cheap