Running a 4agze with no exhaust manifold, or stump type.

[loudstealthGT-Four]

Hi RS13.
He is a good mate of mine and put me on to the idea of the 4age/4agze.

I am putting it into a replica of the Fieseler Fi 156 Storch. Stall speed 20knots, top speed est 78 knots, cruising 70 knots.

If you are ever in Auckland, hit me up you are more then welcome to come learn a bit and photocopy some of my plans.

How do I insert photos? I finally completed my loom, from ford escort RS turbo (1986) KE jet mechanical fuel injection to fit a 4agze Toyota EFI engine!
If anyone wants i can write a tech article about it.

viewtopic.php?t=34314

[kiwi4agze]

Thank you, I updated my last post with photos.

I was going to run very rich to ensure the engine doesn't get starved of fuel at take off and climbing as that's the time most engines fail.

By over supplying fuel i was hoping to ensure it did not lean out to much and as the air got thinner it did not stop working.

[mr_monkey]

Hi there

Sounds like a cool project.

Did you choose a 4age because its good for the job or because your mates using one? Id have thought there were many many other engines out there that are lighter and better suited to the job?

Saving a small bit on engine might be an average decision

Im sure you have done tons of research so keen to hear your reasoning,

wish i had the money, skill and patience to build an airplane!!! Good on ya!

[kiwi4agze]

I chose the 4a series for two reasons:
1) dislike flat engines..
2) got offered a AW11 with a 4agze for $200 (front impact, engine was fine)

The 4a is well built and relatively light, compares well to the Subaru 2L.
Subaru 2L N/A is 140hpish, 4AGZE is 120-130hp.

The 4a has some very good design features, its a compact engine, it has a good valve angle and the head flows well. It turns in the correct way (Honda engines don't) and I have been advised they are very reliable and cheap to rebuild. Plus it was not that hard to adapt it to Mechanical fuel injection as most car engines in planes use carbs.. EFI don't work well in planes.

All up the plane will be around the $15,000 mark so the price of a family sedan you can build one. Mt Monkey you are more then welcome to come over for a beer and I will talk you through it.

[matt dunn]

What are you going to use for ignition timing control?

[kiwi4agze]

I am going to use a modified 4k-e one, as it can control it. but open to other ideas..........

[Townace]

use one of these to control ignition
http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/car-parts-accessories/performance/electronics/auction-410327666.htm

[matt dunn]

the reason i ask is that as it is a supercharged engine it will need a better advance curve than probably either of the two options above will give.

NA engines are easy as you can just aim for 36 deg advance at full load and it will be fine,

but a SC engine will need a more specific curve with a lot less advance or it will blow itself to bits.

[Flannelman]

what are you doing for and oiling system? the Gs that can be pulled in a plane far exceed a cars, and there are may car that has failed due to oil related problems from G force.

Also a plane can roll up-side-down. Even a dry sump wont work in this situation.

No way am I trying to burst your bubble, just if the system you run, can it be adapted for a car for a bulletproof oiling system?

[Mr Revhead]

A Storch is hardly an F16

[mr_monkey]

what are you doing for and oiling system? the Gs that can be pulled in a plane far exceed a cars, and there are may car that has failed due to oil related problems from G force.

Also a plane can roll up-side-down. Even a dry sump wont work in this situation.

No way am I trying to burst your bubble, just if the system you run, can it be adapted for a car for a bulletproof oiling system?

most planes are not designed to fly upside down and will never be faced with this situation.

Sustained horizontal G forces will not be as great as those faced in a sports car. A plane banks before turning.

I'd say an accusump would be a good idea as a precautionary measure, if not doing a dry sump system.

[Flannelman]

Hmm, I might have been thinking of turbine powered aircraft...

Humble pie anyone? I got plenty to go round

[kiwi4agze]

The plane will Never go upside down without it been on fire and plummeting to earth in a great hurry...

Oil system, i was going to use a larger custom sump and run a wet-setup but this has actually given me something to think about. a dry sump would add $$$$$ to it and since its only doing 78knots not sure if its worth it.

The guys i know running a 4age in their planes use the standard oil system but with larger sumps..

The storch is a STOL plane, should get airborne in 22m.. like to see a f-16 do that.....

Maximum G will be light as its a STOL type high wing aircraft, but will think about the oil setup..

Any info on the accsump setup?

[mr_monkey]

Think of it as a big syringe with a spring on the plunger.. when oil pressure is normal the pump fills the syringe with oil and when oil pressure drops for any reason the spring pushes the oil back into the engine to maintain oil pressure. Its a great idea! but certainly not sure if you need it in your application.

http://accusump.com/

No idea what the sumps like on the 4ages but is the sump at the front of the motor so that it will be at the rear when its turned around? Just thinking about takeoff and climbing.

this projects cool, post some pics!

[mr_monkey]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argus_As_10

this is the motor they came with from the factory... is your version 3/4 scale or something? sorry if i missed that part.

[mr_monkey]

stock storch motor
weight: 213 kg (470 lb)
179 kW (240 hp) at 2,000 rpm

VS

smallport 4A-GZE motor
weight 130kg DRY (add weight of water)
121kw at approx 6,500 rpm

obviously you will run a prop suited to running at the much higher RPM.. how how will you get around the massive power deficiency?

[GDII]

stock storch motor
weight: 213 kg (470 lb)
179 kW (240 hp) at 2,000 rpm

VS

smallport 4A-GZE motor
weight 130kg DRY (add weight of water)
121kw at approx 6,500 rpm

obviously you will run a prop suited to running at the much higher RPM.. how how will you get around the massive power deficiency?

Won't he be running the prop off belts like the other plane with the Bluetop in this thread? Small crank pulley with larger prop pulley.

[kiwi4agze]

Massive power deficiency? 120hp is more then enough to get most small scale planes off the ground.

I run a reducer gear as the engine turns too high RPM, most are 2.75 or 3.00-3.15 depending on the gear. Basically its a 1 speed gearbox, engine crank turns a small pulley instead of a gearbox cogs, which in turn turns the larger prop pulley and reduces the propeller rpm.

In terms of power the 4AAGZE is more then enough, its a far more efficient engine then the older AS-10 found in the original storch.


Original wingspan: 14.3m
Mine: 10m
Scale: 70%

Original top speed: 94knts
Mine: 78knts
Scale: 84%

So even tho its smaller scale the 4agze should get it to a better top speed..

Plus i wont have Armour for the pilot, wont have a self-sealing fuel tank and will use lighter materials that are available now that were not in 1940's plus wont have a machine gun plus ammunition..

[mr_monkey]

cool

I made a stupid comment about rpm baaaaaaaahahaha

[kiwi4agze]

Mr Mokey: A Propeller Speed Reduction Unit (PSRU) is a belt and pulley device used to reduce the output revolutions per minute (rpm) from the higher input rpm of the powerplant. This allows the use of small displacement internal combustion automotive engines to turn aircraft propellers within an efficient speed range