ECU modding

[iOnic]

It's consistent enough to not be a problem. Some cars dont even have knock control. As long as you are running the recommended fuel octane your tune should leave enough room for fuel differences. If your tune is so close to the edge that a slight difference in fuel quality is a major problem - even the most advanced knock control system can't help you.

[MAGN1T]

Personally I think that ECUs fall into the same category as "belief" and "car cult" as opposed to science.
With so much sales and marketing thrown at aftermarket ECUs people get their heads filled with BS when it comes to computers.

Fact is that factory computers are very good, they can also be hard to modify for those who don't know what they're doing.
If you've got plenty of spare dollars to waste then an aftermarket one can be a good option.
Likewise if you've got plenty of spare time and not many dollars you can get exceptional results from a factory ECU and a bit of extra hardware.
It all comes down to ability.
Turbos complicate things but carbys can be made to run well with turbos, likewise mechanical injection works well with racecars (look at dirt track circuit racers).
EFI only really excells when it comes to emissions and economy and all out turbo power. An aftermarket ECU is overkill for most road cars. It's just that there's a whole industry out there making a total killing out of it, the best part is the ongoing retunes that seem to be needed all the time.

Steve

[Dell'Orto]

So enlighten us, how do you tune a stock Toyota ECU?

[gt4dude]

My 205 ECU would suit me just well if it had 20psi maps and maybe a tune for like 700cc injectors or something

[matt dunn]

So enlighten us, how do you tune a stock Toyota ECU?

I know a few that do quite a bit of tuning on std ecu's, they bought some quite tricky and expensive gear for re-flashing ecu's etc as they also have a dyno,

But to my and their knowledge so far no-one has re-mapped a Toyota ECU.

You can buy pre-mapped replacement boards, but cannot tune them for an individual car.

[Mr Revhead]

stuff

Come on then, instead of bagging every man and his dog, tell them all the correct way.

[MAGN1T]

There isn't a "correct" way. There's several ways to achieve good results depending on what you're starting with and how far you want to go.
Realistically with a road car the limiting factor will be the pump fuel that you put into it. The most effective way of overcoming the pump octane problem is adding water injection, I've yet to see a tuner in NZ promoting WI, maybe because it doesn't work too well with aftermarket SD systems.
Plus it's so simple, there's very little money to be made compared to ripping everything out and fitting somthing else.
So if you're serious about DIY then you need a way of monitoring both knock and AFR before you change anything from stock.
Sergei mentioned the Knock block, with a simple add on you can interface that to even a factory ECU in order to drop the boost with knock detected. That's extra protection to what's built into the factory ECU.

Then it's time to start reading. You can't go part the "Autospeed " articles. The person behind those has been writing for various Australian electronics magazines for over 30 years and is also behind the kitsets that Jaycar sell.
What you do to the car really depends on whether the factory ECU is speed density based, AFM based (0 to 5 V) or Karman vortex based(frequency).
I've never beed a software fan, I've seen too many software patches used to fix one problem yet create 3 more, so another 3 software patches have to be used to fix those.That's what happens when you build one box that does far too many things all at the same time.

Steve

[cogent]

one thing i know for sure, RE ecu's: i'll never use a microtech again.
absolute garbage ecu.

can't wait to buy a haltech to replace the LTX8 my rx7 came with (no good aus tuners will use a link g4 )

[MAGN1T]

There's a pretty good start.

http://www.autospeed.co.nz/cms/A_110892/article.html

Steve

[iOnic]

Steve, you say a lot without saying anything at all. How about some facts? This is a Toyota forum and it is common knowledge that most Toyota ECU's can not be remapped/reflashed. The closest anyone has got is using romtunes eg. ATS, Blitz access, Toms etc (at best you have slightly better than stock performance - at best...)

If you actually know of a way of changing the mapping on a stock Toyota ECU, say a 4AGE ECU, for less than the cost of a cheap standalone, then we're all ears. Not trying to be a dick but people get sick of being told that they're all wrong and spreading bs by someone who's suggestion is "read autospeed articles". Have you actually modified a Toyota ECU and changed any settings in it?

[MAGN1T]

Like I said, I don't like software, changing it is potential for disaster if you don't know the entire contents.
The most I've personally done with Toyota ECUs is repairing broken ones.
With any ECU though the input signals can be modified so giving a different output.
As far as reflashing toyota ECUs goes, (later ones) yes they can be if you've got the right tools which may or may not be available, the factory has them, as the dealers do. Sooner or later they will become available once the reverse engineering has been done, as it already has with Mitsubishi, Subaru and others.
It even says so on Wiki (OK take with a grain of salt)if you look up
2ZZGE.
................................................................................................
The differing power numbers from 2004 through 2006 are due to changes in dynamometer testing procedures. The Australian variant Corolla Sportivo is 141 kW@7600 and 181N·m Torque. Due to noise regulations, Toyota recalled them for a flash of the PCM to up their output to classify them in the more lenient "sports car" noise category.

......................................................................................................

Internet myth no 5463 gone.

For the likes of older ECUs like 4AGE there's plenty of affordable piggybacks, it still depends on what you want to do with it.
EG if you were starting off with a map sensored ECU and adding cams you might do different mods than for adding a turbo.
The more you read, the more you learn, so long as you keep away from US based forums which tend to be bad for your mental health.

My own toyota doesn't have a computer (diesel). It doesn't stop it from being modified though to go faster. Nor does it prevent it from having electronics added to it to make it better still.

Steve

[iOnic]

You said it can be done on a budget by the DIYer. Now you're saying it can be done using equipment only available to dealers. Do you still beleive that this is on a lesser budget than a standalone? Even if the technology becomes more available, that is of little importance to people that own 80's and 90's Toyotas which is the vast majority here.

Fooling the ECU into thinking the engine is under less load to change the output may work to some extent but it also has undesired effects as I'm sure you know so recommending that is a bit short sighted.

[MAGN1T]

Using Mitsubishi as an example, which is where a lot of my experience is, The GTO ECU is non chippable, non reflashable, The only real limitation is the rev limiter at 7200.
Mines did an upgrade many years ago, It involves removing the processor, adding a socket to where the processor was, fitting a daughter board with processor to that along with 2 eproms. That allows the rev limiter to be raised/disabled and whatever else, last price I had on that was about $1K. Fitting a faster clock crystal to the processor does the same thing ($5 mod, AFR and timing change too but that can be compensated for).
The 3000GT 1/4 mile record in US still stands at 8.6, that's with a Mines (G force) modded factory ECU and ARC2 fuel controller plus a few extra bits.
Of course there's a whole industry out there claiming that standalones are far better but the fastest standalone in the same sort of car is still .7 sec slower, has been for years.
So how are they better? on one forum someone said that they're fully mappable. All that means to me is that it's easier to get it completely wrong.

As for recommending? you've got to be realistic that it's easy to blow a motor up (knock detection needed), they blow up anyway, it keeps engine reconditioners busy, there's plenty of blown motor posts on Toyspeed anyway. I'm actually recommending doing more reading and opening both eyes.

Steve

[®usty]

Fuel quality monitoring is actually conducted from the pump regularly, so I would imagine your 98 or pretty damn close to be sold as 98 otherwise its in breach of consumer laws.

Well from what I understand thats why they have gone away from numbers, and gone to names such as 'v power' also Gulls ethanol fuel loses its rating faster than what other fuels do.

[Mr Revhead]

The dealers do not have anything to reflash software on Toyota ECU's.

As far as the Aussie turbo Corollas go, I suspect you might find they were not running run of the mill Toyotoa ECU's.

[QikStarlie]

Internet myth no 5463 gone.

For the likes of older ECUs like 4AGE there's plenty of affordable piggybacks, it still depends on what you want to do with it.
EG if you were starting off with a map sensored ECU and adding cams you might do different mods than for adding a turbo.
The more you read, the more you learn, so long as you keep away from US based forums which tend to be bad for your mental health.

Steve

Using Mitsubishi as an example, which is where a lot of my experience is, The GTO ECU is non chippable, non reflashable, The only real limitation is the rev limiter at 7200.
Mines did an upgrade many years ago, It involves removing the processor, adding a socket to where the processor was, fitting a daughter board with processor to that along with 2 eproms. That allows the rev limiter to be raised/disabled and whatever else, last price I had on that was about $1K. Fitting a faster clock crystal to the processor does the same thing ($5 mod, AFR and timing change too but that can be compensated for).
The 3000GT 1/4 mile record in US still stands at 8.6, that's with a Mines (G force) modded factory ECU and ARC2 fuel controller plus a few extra bits.
Of course there's a whole industry out there claiming that standalones are far better but the fastest standalone in the same sort of car is still .7 sec slower, has been for years.
So how are they better? on one forum someone said that they're fully mappable. All that means to me is that it's easier to get it completely wrong.


Steve

so you're saying, that you are better off to trick the standard ecu with a bunch of piggy back devices. that cost the same as a stand alone aftermarket ecu. than change to an aftermarket ecu?

[fivebob]

Tricking the standard ECU into doing what you want vs using software designed to allow you to modify anyththing you need to...I know which option I'd use...but then again I'm not afraid of software as I actually understand it

Using black boxes to modify sensor inputs is a recipe for disaster and can have unintended consequences, e.g. leaning things out by altering the MAF/MAP signal will cause the ECU to advance timing as well as reduce fuel... As the say GIGO...Garbage In... Garbage Out.

[MAGN1T]

So you're a software engineer?
I don't know feck all about software but I've been in the game of "putting things right" for over 25 years specialising in microproceesor controlled hardware, everything from telecomms gear,Tvs, Vcrs. CDs, DVDs car electronics, commercial washing machines, commercial microwave ovens. I've even resurrected a Prius.
As they say, a little knowledge is dangerous.
I know enough to leave software alone unles you know everything.

Steve

[Akane]

There is also Apexi ECU but not sure how good it is (ask Akane).

Oh my gosh, where do I begin?

Firstly, The Apexi Power FC is expensive for my particular model, but money well spent.

Secondly with Steve's comments - LOL.

Do you know how shit scared I'm with piggybacks? I won't even dare change the parameters on my S-AFC2 on the Suzuki Wagon R, because I know any adjustment I make, will affect half a dozen other outputs.

On the other hand, I'm zooming down the "strip" equipped with laptop, wideband, and fiddling around with fuel and ignition on the PowerFC without fear.

If I blow the Suzuki's engine up, it's a $1000 replacement, if I blow up the MR2, I'll have to sell my kidney.

Back on topic - So far to date the Toyota ECU's are NOT flashable, no you can't get a "hondata vtax v 1.01" style ECU and flash till the cows come home. The only thing available that's even remotely close is a modified factory ECU that has it's NVROM ripped out and replaced with a flashable EPROM, and that's a mission and a half because only a handful of tuners can tune them - ATS, Blitz access etc...... without them having access to your car, this is virtually USELESS.

I can roll down to the nearest gas station, pump in 91 in the MR2, and dial down my ignition timing by +/- 30 degrees and the car will be fine, even under boost. You won't be able to do that with your "chipped" ECU. (maybe you can, depending on the chipped ECU still retained it's knock control functions)

And about knock - we're all scared of knock, and one thing I have noticed is that while "drag that vtax off au" doesn't yield much knock - a typical pull will have a knock value of around 29 out of possible 100. But while I'm on the track the knock value quickly escalates to 55, and my engine is far from overheated, although it's boosting for longer than usual (it was raining very bad, full throttle when coming over the pits at pukekohe = death sentence), those are the times where I wish I had some kind of automatic knock control instead of the CEL blinking dimly while I'm looking to the left and pointing my car to the right. But the only knock control I have with my PowerFC is ignition retard and dial the boost down (manually). Needless to say I lost considerable amount of power, and it could be all over in a second.

Steve, you said how you don't need an ECU to be cool because your diesel can do things that we can too, but you're forgetting that the diesel doesn't have to worry about AFR and ignition timing, 2 of the many causes that can blow your headgasket

But I'm sure you know all that, since you've been in the game for 25 years, I'm just a poor kid who thought CT26's can make 450hp.

[iOnic]

If you're on a budget there are other options. For less than the price of an SAFC, one can build/buy a Megasquirt ECU which is lightyears ahead of any piggyback. You can also hop on Trademe and buy certain Honda ECU's that can be chipped and tune them using CROME, Hondata etc. Both options work well on Toyotas but be aware, the less money you're willing to spend, the more time you better have for research.