N/A cams vs Turbo cams - 3SGTE

[Ako]

Ok

Got the engine going in next week - now question. Got a set of the normal cams in it now, but not dialled in or anything yet. Also have a set of Gen 2 N/A cams spare in the garage, and I'm wondering if its worth throwing them in it instead?

And before you ask - the 262's went walkies since the damn cars on a stock ECU. I know they'd be handy, but hey... Later on down the track when $$ allows Ill sort them out along with an ECU to run them right.

[Malcolm]

Turbo: 236 deg duration, 8.2mm lift
NA: 244 deg duration, 8.5mm lift

Intake and exhaust are the same

Also, FWIW an employee of ATS in the US made something like 320rwhp from a td06 on stock ecu with 264? degree cams

[Malcolm]

sorry seems I was mistaken about the power made by the ATS car, it was 289RWHP, but using stock injectors, with just a walbro pump for extra fueling

mods were

HKS 264 IN/EX cams
ATS racing cam gears
ATS racing TD06 turbo kit
ATS TB inlet
Apexi N1 exhaust
Spal fan on the stock intercooler
Tiny K&N air filter
Walbro fuel pump (in tank)
Greddy type RS BOV
JDM 1991 ECU

And it was on only 11psi!

more info here:
http://www.mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=163561

[Akane]

It's "only" 11psi because the engine is consuming a lot more air, there will be less pressure build up in the manifold for the boost gauge to register.

A common mistake is "bro that EVO runs 15psi and it has 400hp! You have to run 25psi to get 450hp, you suck bro!"
but little they realise the it's the amount of air that enters the chambers that count, bigger cam will allow more air flow in the combustion chamber with less resistance.

But unless you max out your cams, at the end of the day cams or no cams you'll flow the same hp. The turbo can only flow so much before running out of puff. Cams just shift the powerband.

[Ako]

Iiiiiinteresting....

$&#$%, I should have kept those cams in hindsight. Damn and blast - they're making good numbers, and I've got the extra fuelling available to try and push the turbo a bit closer to being efficient!

Oh well... Gonna be good to pull the string on this wee puppy and see what it can pull out. 300hp atw is the honest goal, on pump gas (avvy if need be, its a weekend toy).

Do you honestly think its worthwhile going to the N/A cams to help achieve this? I know the setup in this car isn't ideal, BUT right now I'm more interested in just getting it going, and seeing what happens.


I'll give you the rundown on what it has now anyway -

SARD 280LPH in tank pump
Turbo (as you know) is a TD06-25G, externally gated.
Stock intake mani, I'm going to remove the TVIS system or at least have it left open 24/7
GReddy side mount intercooler with a fan on the back of it
Exhaust is a 3" straight through affair
Intake will be a pod mounted in the side venty thing - turbos perfectly sited to do this and im not going to do much better for cold air.
ECU is the stock unit (stupid wallet is a bit empty)
Has a pair of extra injectors on the inlet, just prior to the TB. Control of these is by a GReddy sub injector controller, RPM or Boost activated - not ideal but better than nothing - haven't checked the size of them, but even if they're 300cc its still enough extra fuel for my aims.
Rest of the fuelling is stock - 440's, stock reg etc
Engine is internally stock apart from a new head gasket.
I'm waiting on your guys' advice as to whether or not the cams should get switched - you've all had a lot more 3SGTE experience than I have.

Long story short - I don't want to lean particularly hard on this engine. I'd rather have something with around 200kW atw which isn't a time bomb, than try and push it into the 230-240kW zone but have it on the ragged edge of reliability - unless this is genuinely possible. Too much power is no bad thing.

I know the setup is far from ideal, but I know it can be made to work fine - it did for 3 years on kiwi pump gas before! Apparently the dyno pull it got after arriving in country was just shy of 400hp atw, on 96 octane...

[Malcolm]

well the cams will help a little - I thought about putting some into mine but couldn't be bothered redoing the shims for a tiny bit more duration and lift.

With the extra injectors, provided they're well set up with a close eye on A/F then there's no good reason why you couldn't reach 300rwhp, you certainly have all the turbo you need to get there so it should be alright.

I think the extra injectors are a better solution than larger injectors with S-AFC or similar, as you wont be stuffing with the timing curve, so you shouldn't get into problems of having excessive timing advance. If you want to reach that power on 95 octane then you'll almost certainly have to pull base timing to 8DBTC or lower to avoid massive amounts of fuel dumping to prevent knock

[Ako]

Forgot about the shims... Good thing you reminded me or I'd be liable to just bung the new cams in and carry on my merry way

Yes, I'm getting a bit excited about nearing the end of a long, frustrating tunnel to get this little beggar going again!

[Al]

It's "only" 11psi because the engine is consuming a lot more air, there will be less pressure build up in the manifold for the boost gauge to register.

A common mistake is "bro that EVO runs 15psi and it has 400hp! You have to run 25psi to get 450hp, you suck bro!"
but little they realise the it's the amount of air that enters the chambers that count, bigger cam will allow more air flow in the combustion chamber with less resistance.

But unless you max out your cams, at the end of the day cams or no cams you'll flow the same hp. The turbo can only flow so much before running out of puff. Cams just shift the powerband.

The car in question made ~275rwhp on 14psi without the 264s. They dropped the 264's in, just dialled them in straight up, and made 289rwhp on 11psi

[strx7]

I do believe I have your cams now ready to go into my GT-T powered ST185. I measured those TODA 264's against the std GT-T cams. the toda cams have 0.1mm more lift, and have the same base circle.
I'll be running a MSE TD05H/TD06 with front mount, std GT-T injectors, Haltech E6K, and an part of an ST202 3SGE dizzy for ignition pick up.
I'm running a 38mm external wastegate and a tubular steam pipe exhuast manifold with very near equal length runners all between 450 and 480mm (between port face and turbo entry)
I'll most likely add some water injection too.

[Al]

I thought Andy got the cams

[strx7]

yip, and he kept the cam wheels I believe and on sold the cams. he advertised them on TM and I grabbed them

[Akane]

The car in question made ~275rwhp on 14psi without the 264s. They dropped the 264's in, just dialled them in straight up, and made 289rwhp on 11psi

Exactly. That's why VTAK respond so well to turbo applications, because people THINK they're running f-all boost and getting huge gains, but in reality they're just flowing as much air, just that when VTAK kicks in the boost gauge registers less boost, same as having lumpy cams in a normal car.

[Ako]

yip, and he kept the cam wheels I believe and on sold the cams. he advertised them on TM and I grabbed them

So long as I get whatever A) he owes me and b) whatever gains he made from onselling them to you, so be it. 2 months later I finally hear I'll be getting paid for them...