Engine starting problems. (3sge)

[RomanV]

Hi folks.

I've had a hitch, re: starting my engine.

Basically, it cranks over, but that's about it.

I've only got the extractors attached basically, so I'd know about it if it was firing. (Yes, the oxy sensor is in BTW)

So it seems like there is either no spark, or no fuel.
Surely if there was no spark, the exhaust fumes coming out would smell strongly of petrol, which they dont.

So I'm thinking that it is perhaps a fuel related issue?
My gas gauge is sitting just above empty, and there's an unusal whirring sound, coming from under the car, near the front of the gas tank.
Which I would assume is the position of the fuel pump?
Is it possible that the tank is empty, and the gauge is reading incorrectly?
It's been sitting for ages with the gas cap undone, so it could have mostly evaporated. I suppose I'll go get some gas from the gassey down the road, and try it again.
If that isnt the problem, I'm not too sure what is.

Also, I tried to check for diagnostic codes by bridging TE1 and E1, but it didnt produce any results. The diagnostic mode doesnt seem to be 'working' at all. Any ideas there?
Do I need to bridge a different plug to the earth, for the later model engine? (1998 gen 4 3sge)

Thanks
Roman

[Dell'Orto]

Try some gas first ya lazy prick and you have checked for spark?

[RomanV]

Yeah, I will be embarrassed/relieved if it's just out of gas.

I still need to know about the diag terminal though, it doesnt seem to work.

I unplugged the AFM to try and invoke a fault, but still nothing.
So I'm not too sure what's going on there.

It's hard to check for spark, because I cant actually see any of the coils, while standing in a position to turn the key over.
Perhaps I could put my finger over the end of one of them?

Anyway, off to the gassey, BRB.

[Malcolm]

for the check engine light to work, three things must happen:
ECU must have power
TE1 terminal must be earther
Check engine light output must be connected to earth

if you have wiring pinout diagram then use it to directly earth TE1 and connect a bulb up to the check light output (I can't remember if it provides 12v or earths though), then you can get the check engine light working if you can't get it working any other way

Anyway, the first things I'd suggest are checking for spark, then checking for fuel. Easiest way to check for fuel is to remove the fuel return line and see if fuel comes out

[RomanV]

Okay, I've got a few questions.

If you turn the key to the 'on' position, without cranking it over, the fuel pump starts, and pumps fuel up to a certain pressure in the fuel rail, right?

And then it turns off when this pressure is reached?

Or is it on all of the time, and the excess fuel comes back through the return line?

It's a bit late to be cranking the engine over, as my neighbours will no doubt get shitty about it.

But I'll give it another try in the morning.

[RomanV]

Well I undid the fuel return line, and clicked the key over to the 'on' position.

It still sounds like the fuel pump is whirring away, and no fuel came out of the return line.

So it would seem that it is indeed fuel that is the issue here.

(Assuming that the fuel pump runs, when you've got the car in the 'on' position, without having the engine going?)

It's got about.... 6-7 litres of gas in there, but perhaps the car is on a funny angle, because it's on jack stands. I'll try to fill it up a bit more tomorrow, and see where I get from there.

[fivebob]

Later model engines don't use TE1 & E1, they use the TC pin which is earthed to generate the signal which comes from the SIL pin. You may have to do some rewiring to get the Beams engine ECU to work with the earlu model loom.

[spencer]

Well I undid the fuel return line, and clicked the key over to the 'on' position.

It still sounds like the fuel pump is whirring away, and no fuel came out of the return line.

usually only pumps on cranking dude

[Malcolm]

Well I undid the fuel return line, and clicked the key over to the 'on' position.

It still sounds like the fuel pump is whirring away, and no fuel came out of the return line.

usually only pumps on cranking dude

yep, should turn on when you're trying to start it or when the ecu recognises the engine is running.

If you had been trying to crank it, however, there should be some fuel in the return line

[RomanV]

Thanks for the replies, I'll check these things out.

I'll try again with the diagnostic terminal, as suggested by FiveBob.

Then, if that shows nothing useful,

I'll try eliminate fuel as a problem, as I'm not entirely convinced that there's enough in there.
So I'll try and find a decent container, and go and get a decent amount to put in it.
Since the fuel return hose was completely dry when I unplugged it, I think this might be the problem.

After that, I'll check for spark, but I'll need a friend to help.

And after that.....
I'll double check all of my earths etc,

and after that, I'll go through the wiring diagrams, and try to see if there are any glaring differences.

It could only be different at the kick panel though, as everything else either leads to the ECU, or is plugged onto the engine, or both.

[Malcolm]

I had a very similar problem with mine when I first tried to start it. Eventually I discovered there wasn't enough voltage getting to the ECU due to corrosion in some terminals/fuses. A big spray of CRC into all the plugs and the fuse box fixed it immediately

[RomanV]

Perhaps it caught the corrosion from the AW shell.

hows the AW coming along anyway?

[Malcolm]

har har, actually the corrosion on the terminals is about all the rust I've found on the aw not counting the front bumper beam

I just need time to finish a few little things - like fixing that valve cover gasket making a new firewall heat shield, and buying/running the bigger hoses for the w/a

[RomanV]

Well, it's definitely got fuel!

I came home at lunch time today, and there was a large puddle of fuel, dripping out of the fuel return line which I didnt reattach last night.
However, it seems strange that there was no sign of fuel there last night.

[Rob]

If you leave a fuel hose off at night with the cap still on the filler then as the day warms up the fuel expands and will come out where ever possible, so I'd say thats what caused that.

The easiest way to check for spark with the long ceramic? leads is to pull one off its spark plug and crank it over and listen for cracking as it arcs out to the head. As for fuel pull off the supply to your rail and crank to see if it squirts out. (sounds dodgy but its the easiest way without pulling everything to bits). My fuel pump in my celica has been wired straight into the AFM as I had a similar problem and the sparkies couldn't figure it out

[Alex B]

Lol yes that would work, keep it away from that "pool" of petrol tho

[RomanV]

Alright, a few more questions.

1. Where does the wiring to the fuel pump run to and from?
Is it regulated by the ECU?

2. My diagnostics terminal has the following plugs:

I dont have the SEL or what ever that fivebob suggested, so it obviously isnt an option. Does this mean that it should be the earth to TE1?

EDIT: Never mind, I see that the SIL pin is one that comes out of the ECU loom. Would it work if I just hooked up a light to this, to see the flashes?

3. My coils dont appear to be firing. I cant see/hear a spark when I pulled one out, and got someone else to turn over the key. Any ideas here? Where do the earths for the coils have to strap to? The engine block, or the chassis, or doesnt it matter?

4. There is a wiring loom in the cabin, which runs down over top of the fuel tank area, and then splits left and right at the firewall. The only important wiring that I saw here was for the 'door open' sensors, is there anything else important that runs down the centre there? Everything else appears to be wiring for the stereo.

[RomanV]

After some discussion with anthony, he suggested that I run a multimeter over the fuses in the rear fuse box.

It turns out that the 'ECU' fuse has no power to it.

Hence the lack of diagnostic terminal flashes.

It appears that some rewiring is required, at the kick panel.

[RomanV]

Okay, well I've noted down all of the colours, of the old and new plugs that plug in at the kick panel.
I have tried to work out where each of the new wires lead to using this diagram, but things dont quite match up.

It looks like I'm going to have to trace each wire to where it leads.

Unless anyone else has any bright ideas.

BTW, the differences in the plugs are as follows, for anyone that may have a useful contribution:

New plug is at the bottom, old plug on top. 'Silba' means 'silver band', as these wires had silver bands on them.

plug one
plug two
plug three

Even if those pictures dont make sense, any ideas on where to go from here, are appreciated.

[no_8wire]

give up and buy an AW11...