Is a 4AG(T)E better than a 3SGTE?

[RomanV]

People go to a lot of effort with 7AG upgrades, turbo manifolds, etc etc to add more displacement and power.

However since this brings you to about 1800cc, is this really better than a built up 3SGTE at 2l or 2.2 litres with 5S bits?

The power figures seem to point to 4AGE builds being the superior option, but why? What's wrong with the 3SGTE, or whats great about the 4AGE that a 3SGTE lacks?

I'm not biased in this, I just want to hear different peoples opinions about why they think either is better FROM A TECHNICAL POINT OF VIEW.
(Dont forget which forum this is in please)

In terms of power stakes, 4AGE build ups seem to make more power, more easily/often. Is this just because more people do it, or perhaps the larger range of platforms that a 4AGE fits into, and easy access to parts?

Being transverse only, a 3SGTE has limited options for swaps into front engined RWD cars etc as easily.

To me it seems like the bore/stroke and block size/strength/etc favours the 3SGTE for a ground up build, but results seem to speak otherwise... And I'm curious as to why this might be.

[headshotnz]

I know stuff all, and just speaking on speculation, however from what I understand 4age builds don't have low end power, which is i.e. good for drag or dyno results however not circuit racing.

Also high power 4agte builds tend too be running 25+ psi.

I would like too see what a 3s could make with a head ported by some one who isint a monkey, good fuel system, a suitable cam for the build and a turbo to complement the package.(plus all the other parts that's necessary for a high hp, reliable, with low end power build) (and if you want a dyno engine a million plus PSI's added in)

Bear in mind, bigger isin't always better, its how you use it

[iOnic]

Outright power/torque - 3SGTE will always win.
IMO the biggest selling point with the A series is the amount of variety in chassis. With the 3SGTE you're pretty much limited to a Caldina, Celica or MR2.

[Makaveli]

3S-GTE JGTC Spec





Top Secret 3S-GTE Supra

[/list]

[sergei]

I think 4/7AGTE build are popular because the base car is cheap, plenty of aftermarket bits, 20v head flows really good in forced induction situations.
There are a lot more levins/truenos/corollas that came with 4AGE than Celicas/MR2.

Most people find 4WD too much, and MR2 inconvenient.

This A vs S is going to end up flame war.

In my experience there is nothing wrong with 3S.
Common misconceptions:
3S run bearings: only if you forgot to add oil (or do something stupid, eg: use wrong sump, rebuild with wrong bearing size, etc.).
3S head don't flow well. Specifically they are compared to Evo/STI heads. That is again a misconception. 3S flow well enough to produce 200+ kw on stock boost with light mods.

There are a few truth to the story, for example 3S are known to crack the blocks, but that only applies to older revisions. They tend to be more sensitive to oil issues as the engine is slanted and does not return oil as fast.

You can say many bad things about 4A as well. Run bearings and conrods through block is not a rarity. Inflated power figures in standard form is a disappointment (especially when put against B16A).

There is no substitute for displacement. If you through same amount of money on 3S as you would on 4A, you will get more power out of 3S.

Another factor is that 300kW out small displacement vs 300kW out of large displacement means that you will get less in range of power on smaller engined car.

3S is a bit heavier, so normally you would not put it in 1000kg Levin.
You would not find GT4 running 7AGTE either.

Am I remember correctly that Denso/Sard Supra used 3SGTE over 2JZGTE to get the weight distribution and weight advantage?


There is another good example:
http://www.suprastore.com/topsecsuport.html

[headshotnz]

I love that top secret 3S, didnt it make 800hp and rev to 10k or some thing similar?

I was under the assumption if you look at the 3s head next to ej20 or 4g63 head the port design and shape is very good on the 3s.

Realistically when it comes too making usable usefull power modifying of the head is the most crucial part of making power and complementing with designer cams too fit the package (not of the shelf "biggest max duriation") plus a well balanced and lightened bottom end too suit.

It fairness though, iv only listened and listened and listened too one of newzealands best engineers (who im not going too name because the poor bastard doesn't need too be associated with me ) Brad(dellorto) has seen his top secret work shop though

[DeeCee]

would we also have to consider how the power is measured eg FWD vs AWD vs RWD?

Comparing power figures of FWD vs RWD, american 3S/5S are making high levels of power which is comparable to the FWD 4A/7A engines around.

[Shrike]

I love that top secret 3S, didnt it make 800hp and rev to 10k or some thing similar?

I was under the assumption if you look at the 3s head next to ej20 or 4g63 head the port design and shape is very good on the 3s.

Realistically when it comes too making usable usefull power modifying of the head is the most crucial part of making power and complementing with designer cams too fit the package (not of the shelf "biggest max duriation") plus a well balanced and lightened bottom end too suit.

It fairness though, iv only listened and listened and listened too one of newzealands best engineers (who im not going too name because the poor bastard doesn't need too be associated with me ) Brad(dellorto) has seen his top secret work shop though

The one in tawa area?

And reason im going 7a is because I want the engine bay to look factory (minus the turbo etc)

3s would be good for other builds im considering

[headshotnz]

I love that top secret 3S, didnt it make 800hp and rev to 10k or some thing similar?

I was under the assumption if you look at the 3s head next to ej20 or 4g63 head the port design and shape is very good on the 3s.

Realistically when it comes too making usable usefull power modifying of the head is the most crucial part of making power and complementing with designer cams too fit the package (not of the shelf "biggest max duriation") plus a well balanced and lightened bottom end too suit.

It fairness though, iv only listened and listened and listened too one of newzealands best engineers (who im not going too name because the poor bastard doesn't need too be associated with me ) Brad(dellorto) has seen his top secret work shop though

The one in tawa area?

And reason im going 7a is because I want the engine bay to look factory (minus the turbo etc)

3s would be good for other builds im considering

Na mate, whos that?

Whats your reason for keeping it looking standard?

[RomanV]

I guess another thing is, if you can make 300+kw with a 4AGE build up, then why have the heavier block etc of the bigger engine.

(For a race car etc anyway)

I wonder what the weight difference would be between a built up 3SGTE or 7AGTE, or whether it's negligable after all of the extra bits that bolt on to either.

I can see the reasoning for going to the 3SGTE from the 2JZGTE for the supra with the GT300 class where you're limited to 300hp anyway, but perhaps diminishing gains going from one 4cyl iron block engine to another slightly smaller one.

[GDII]

I'm pretty sure the 3SGTE powered Supras were running in the GT500 class with a 500hp limit. One team even used the 3SGTE engine & running gear from the GT500 supra in a ZZT23* body in the GT300 class.

[~SlideWays~]

For me I chose to go with a FWD 4agze turbo because of chassis being light, easy to replace and plenty of parts options.

That FWD chassis decision was made after 4agze'ing an AE86 and tracking it a few times and realising it would be a nightmare to fix if it hugged a wall.

4agZe because of out-of-the box strong internals and over engineered gearbox/half shafts.

Plus it was easy to make 200kw+ with what is basically an out of the box long block. Very good flow through a smallport head.

17psi to make 212kw's atw and surprisingly good response considering its a t3/04e large-ish turbo.

[Lith]

I wonder what the weight difference would be between a built up 3SGTE or 7AGTE, or whether it's negligable after all of the extra bits that bolt on to either.

A quick google tells me that a 3SGE is 14kg heavier than a 4AGE, so around 1% more weight to a 1100kg car for around 25% increase in displacement - or 11% if you are looking at the case of a 7AGE, assuming that 7A weighs the same as a 4A which I'd assume maybe not the case.

The reason I beileve we see a lot more impressive results for 4AGEs from all I can tell is they are what more people spend money on, the cars they come in are probably lighter/cheaper and a lot of projects which go out of control start on these kinds of platforms, and a lot of the time people have used E85/C16/Q16/Meth to get their results while most 3SGTE builds I've seen have been pretty mild and run on pump gas etc.

A car I've recently got "involved" with is powered by a relatively mildly built 3SGTE and its early days yet, but my initial impressions of the way these motors behave with some basic upgrades I have to say are pretty good - so far I have fairly grown faith in the ol' 3SGE, and would take one over a 4AGE in a heart beat... if nothing else, because of the old "no replacement for displacement" thing. Do everything else the same, and more displacement ensures everything just happens better.

[Bling]

IMO the biggest selling point with the A series is the amount of variety in chassis. With the 3SGTE you're pretty much limited to a Caldina, Celica or MR2.

This would be my guess as to why people go the 4/7agte way. So many more options that require minimal work to jam one in.

[FST4RD]

Would a 300kw 3SGTE not be more reliable over the long run then a 300kw 4AGTE? Simply due to the bigger displacement? Especially if you were running 300kw day in an day out, using the car as a daily, track and drag car?

I would guess that one of the other reasons for people going down the 4AGTE route would be due to it being done over and over again and the blue prints to building one is easy.

[Lith]

This would be my guess as to why people go the 4/7agte way. So many more options that require minimal work to jam one in.

Yep, that's my thought - its not that its the better engine persay... just convenient.

[KinLoud]

My AA63 Carina racecar
Factory engine was an early 4age with T50 gearbox
Raced it with this engine for 2 seasons

Then put a gen3 3sge in with w57 gearbox - this was before altezza 3sge/gearbox combos were available at reasonable price.
Used factory 1S crossmember and engine mounts, factory bellhousing
Custom exhaust and lots of work to make the oil system keep the engine alive (altezza engine is fine).

Now almost completed a 4agte conversion (blacktop 20v with supercharged pistons)
Reasons....
Wasn't wanting mega power (200-250kw atw will be plenty!)
Almost endless supply of blocks/heads/cranks etc
Lighter and smaller (easier to fit everything in engine bay)
Well known formula for easy power
Disadvantages - custom bellhousing ($$$), requires custom manifolds

Problems with 3sgte
Very hard to find good condition turbo 3sgte engines
Difficult to ensure oil supply when mounted upright
Requires custom exhaust manifolds for rwd

Ken

[bzrspeed]

i like 4age as based on ford bda and i like bda.

[matt dunn]

Would a 300kw 3SGTE not be more reliable over the long run then a 300kw 4AGTE? Simply due to the bigger displacement?

No why would it?
Bigger displacement is not the answer,
otherwise the 2.4 cavailer motor would be the best, lol.


I hate the 3S series.
Everyone I know that has tried to race them had had problem after problem with them
and have spent way more on them trying to keep them going than they ever planned on.

[Mr. Mainstream]

i like 4age as based on ford bda and i like bda.

Sorry my ethic cousin but this is simply not true, they might share the odd nut and bolt here and there and also share near the same CC rating in the first of the BDA's against the 4A-GE motor but that's about it in common,
Different valve angles,flow characteristics and most obvious the the deck and bore size etc etc,

On topic i Vote 3S simply for the "cubes"