rod knock on fresh engine! + ae111 4agze conversion question

[jacobrjett]

just wondering what would be required to do a 4agze conversion in my ae111

my bellhousing and gearbox should fit right up correct?

im pretty sure the engine bay is more cramped inside the ae111 then the ae101/gtz, would the 4agze + supercharger setup fit in correctly?

will i be able to use the blacktop loom to connect to the 4agze ecu? or would I need to get into some wiring?

im not doing this to handle a mean turbo or anything, ive just gotten rod knock in my engine AGAIN and am not going to go through all the rebuild process again, so just wanted to buy a new engine. the 20v blacktop and 4agze setup seem to go for a similar price and i thought the 4agze would be cool.

Basically I intend to run the entire gtz setup in my ae111. Just wondering what trouble I would run into considering engine mounts, and ECU/wiring, and the axles if i go with the 5 speed lsd that comes with the 4agze as well.

I like the idea of a nice front mount intercooler and the big pulley kit in the future, I think they would make for a unique BZR.

[levinguy]

did you put a new oil pump in when you 'rebuilt'?

any oil change/filter change won't fix any noise's just hide them..

bellhousing should bolt up, cranks aren't different.. just run the right clutch setup to suit..

[jacobrjett]

No I did not.

I asked my builder if this was necessary, he pulled it to pieces (there was some tube thing and a spring inside it) and said it was all good to reuse.

I kind of dont trust the guy anymore, he did mention that I should drive it like a "normal human being" quite a few times,

[mlewis]

The 4agze engine in mine fitted in right when it still had the charger unit on it. only thing is is that the top mount will hit the bonnet.

I believe mine uses my blacktop flywheel and clutch setup and the engine mounts are a mix of both 4agze and 4age 20v bt mounts

[allencr]

should drive it like a "normal human being" quite a few times,

It's very hard to kill bearings no matter how you drive it unless there's no oil.
It's reving on cold startups or with a new unfilled/unprimed filter that does it if it was assembled decently.
Bearings DO NOT require a break-in period!!!!

[rollaholic]

if you have problems, take it back.

dont let him get away with 'you $&#$% it, young hooligans' etc.

you have rights and if you got it rebuilt professionally and have followed his instructions then you paid a fortune. its only been a few months yeah? take that shit to court if need be.

[evil_si]

No I did not.

I asked my builder if this was necessary, he pulled it to pieces (there was some tube thing and a spring inside it) and said it was all good to reuse.

I kind of dont trust the guy anymore, he did mention that I should drive it like a "normal human being" quite a few times,

Tube and spring thing is the oil pressure regulator, not the pump.

Id take it back,
Shouldnt fail on startup, did it knock from the beginning?

Did you put a Pressure guage in to monitor oil pressure While cranking and starting?

How much cranking did you do to start it?

Do you have an external oil cooler, remote filter etc?

Was it prelubed by forcing oil in to the galleries?

Was it lubricated with an assembly grease when it was built?

[jacobrjett]

Shouldnt fail on startup, did it knock from the beginning?

nope did not knock from beginning. It was running sweet, and I just started noticing a faint knock at around 2300kms, I poured a couple hundred mills in and it went away. (yes the dipstick said it was full though) Last night after work, I heard it knocking and the oil pressure light came on for a bit. just after starting it. It was quite a definate knock, you know the one that gives you that gut wrenching feeling

Did you put a Pressure guage in to monitor oil pressure While cranking and starting?

Nope I did buy one, but the oil pressure sender didnt fit, seemed the right size but the original unit had a tapered thread this one had a straight thread and I just couldnt get it to thread in. But yeah Im guesing not using a oil pressure gauge was very bad idea - Lesson learned here.

How much cranking did you do to start it?

Tons - I got thrown off by that error in the repair manual with the camshaft pulley slot setup, and had the timing out for ages while I was trying to start it. Would have had tons of cranking before it actually started. Though that would have been turning the oil pump and putting some oil through it anyway right? It started first pop when I re-set the timing.

Do you have an external oil cooler, remote filter etc?

Nope I do not. All factory with a repco filter

Was it prelubed by forcing oil in to the galleries?

I have no idea what this means sorry. so if thats something I do when i put it in, then nope, if its something the builder was supposed to do, then who knows.

Was it lubricated with an assembly grease when it was built?

definately yeah, I went in a few times to see how it was going and to get some pictures etc. and he had tons of tubes that said assembly lube on them

you have rights and if you got it rebuilt professionally and have followed his instructions then you paid a fortune. its only been a few months yeah? take that shit to court if need be.

Yeah I will take it back to him and see what he says. Problem is he is my uncles mate so kind of a perk job I guess. I dont have the receipts etc. and charged me a cheaper rate for the work. Also, he could turn around and say im not going to fix it until you bring me the engine the way you had it the first time, as in, I would have to go home and pull the engine out and then pull it to bits and bring it back to him, and wait for him to order parts etc.. I would much rather try get a bit of money out of him and get a different engine, and have it all done in a day or two.

The 4agze engine in mine fitted in right when it still had the charger unit on it. only thing is is that the top mount will hit the bonnet.

I believe mine uses my blacktop flywheel and clutch setup and the engine mounts are a mix of both 4agze and 4age 20v bt mounts

sweet yours was from an aw11 though rite?
if I can find a lowish kms 4agze out of an ae101 I am hoping to just dump it right in. Im just wondering what problems I would run into as far as fuel injectors, engine mounts, and wiring etc. I would have to run a front mount intercooler though. if its going to take a lot of work I might just buy that 140km blacktop on trademe and throw it in, that should only take me a day or two.

Also im wondering if the big power increase over the 16v to the 20v is from the compression, or the cams and ports... I mean would a 4agze with my blacktop head be faster then a straight 4agze? it would definately look nicer at least... at the expense of a new head gasket and head studs if i pull the head...

[jacobrjett]

$&#$% it, ill just stick with the blacktop engine instead of a gze

will take it to the guy, try get some money out of him, and just try buy that 140km blacktop on trademe

that way I can re-use my new waterpump, tensioner bearing, hydraulic tensioner etc.

and have a spare blacktop that I could rebuild myself in the future when the time comes...

[mlewis]

yea mine is from a aw11 but the engine is set up the same with placement of the supercharger under the intake. bonus of one from an aw11 is that the top mount intercooler sits above the gearbox level with the top of the engine rather then ontop of the motor. When it comes to engine mounts you mix the two together and it fits. And at this stage im still using the factory fuel setup on the engine and 20v bt fuel pump

[jacobrjett]

hmm. if it sounds straight forwared enough ill do it.

How does intercooler plumbing work? do you just buy kits, or do you just buy the bends and DIY?

looks like ill need
4agze itself
MAYBE the 4agze lsd 5 speed gearbox (if i want)
4agze ECU, powersteering pump, air conditioning pump (i want to keep it sedate) and alternator etc.
front mount intercooler
intercooler plumbing

does the 4agze ECU plug into the blacktop loom? or will I need to change the loom?
if I use the 4agze gearbox, will I need different axles or anything? nah?

would I be expecting too much to hope for 200hp at the wheels, with a 4agze with blacktop head, more boost from the pulley swap, front mount intercooler, cold air intake and an exhaust?

[rollaholic]

i dont know for certain but i dont think the SC setup will fit straight onto a blacktop head. you'll need to sort out some wiring headaches too.

GZE is only moderately more powerful than GE, just makes the power in different places. they are fun-ish, sorta cool to have some go low in the rev range for street driving. and it would certainly be something a bit different.

200hp is pretty optimistic.

personally i dont reckon it would be worth all the hassle in terms of bang for buck, but thats just me.

remember you'll be up for a cert too.

[jacobrjett]

righto so some wiring and cert issues, and would have to stick with the 16v head?

considering the 165hp factory the blacktop makes is supposedly very optimistic, mine would probably put out 130-140hp at the wheels im guessing? even if I got 160-180hp from a gze with a front mount, more boost and breathing mods it would still make a significant difference...

ill see how I go, i guess i will probably end up just getting a new blacktop as it would be a straight fit with no cert required. so much less hassle

ive noticed that the knock goes away almost 100% and I need to listen VERY hard to hear it very faintly if its fully wramed up?

thank you all for your input, much appreciated.

[rollaholic]

that 165 number will be 'at the engine'. you'd have to put your car on a dyno to get an indication of what sort of numbers its actually making.

GZE feels faster, and probably is faster in most real world, on road scenarios. and that counts for something i guess.

[jacobrjett]

your talking about a bone stock gze right? or one with smaller pulley and a front mount?

if a bone stock gze is just a little faster then a bone stock 20v, i can imagine it being significantly faster with more boost and a front mount... considering its boosted it has more potential to up the power easily before getting into cams and ecu etc. right?

thanks for all your advice

[Grotty]

ive noticed that the knock goes away almost 100% and I need to listen VERY hard to hear it very faintly if its fully wramed up?

a knock is a knock, they dont go away.

[jacobrjett]

yea thats wat im thinking i mean once its there its there, so im not expecting it to suddenly become better - but i am adamant that you can barely hear it when its warmed up. well, lets say the knock is coming and going.

dont get me wrong I understand when it comes to rod knock, its $&#$% and its not going to fix itself. but it definately seems to come and go.

im wondering if the builder used the wrong size bearings or something, and the knock is coming and going due to it sometimes getting oil pressure in the bearings and sometimes not...

either that or the oil pump should have been replaced.

[Mr Revhead]

Are you sure it's not the vvt pulley?

Gze makes a heap torque right where the 20v is weak in torque so it will feel a lot faster.
Overall in day to day use the gze will probably be quicker, certainly will be a lit easier to get more power from. The na gearbox is a lot better in ratios for them too imo

Look at it this way torque > hp unless you like to talk shit

[Bling]

I don't think it's worth the hassle personally. By the time you buy another engine, install it (with or without doing things like cambelt etc) and cert it. You'll be at least half way to just buying a stock ae101 gtz.

I'd think nothing about it until you have resolved your current problem. If you want a GZE, buy one and sell what you have. If you get yours sorted they will probably be worth the same money so it won't really cost you.

Until you have had it checked, there isn't much point taking wild guesses imo.

[jacobrjett]

ummm... i guess it could be, does it sound similar to a rod knock?

i doubt it would be actually considering it gets louder hand in hand with low oil pressure.

also... i might be mislead but i thought HP was calculated by the torque anyway

ill have a while to decide weather to go with the 4age or 4agze while i save... lol