Toyspeed.org.nz Message Board

Okay. So was watching the news the other day and there was an article on stability control in cars.

Now. While I understand that there is a genuine benefit with them if something untoward happens and everything goes pear shaped while you're driving.

But are we (as a society) just heading toward a case of don't bother learning how to drive a car properly and sensibly, just drive however you want and let the driving aids sort you out.
And as a result are we letting human nature (I want something bigger, faster, better) guide motor vehicle design rather than sensibility (I can't exceed 100kph legally, so I want something comfortable, efficient and practical).

People (as a species) suck at driving. Most people who drive have next to no understanding of how the ton and a half worth of steel is effected by the decisions they make.

The "driver aids" are to help make up for the fact that people are by and large, as dumb as a bag of hammers, and woefully ignorant about driving.

i think the worst one is ABS is the worst on people on ice all of a sudden think they have as good a breaks as they do in the dry & the computers will fix everything

we had about atleast 30 come in to were i was working last year saying my ABS is faulty as i cant stop quicker nuf on ice.

New Zealand drivers went down the "don't bother learning how to drive a car properly" road many eons ago. I think that driver aids are a good thing to save people from themselves.

Personally, on the road I'm all for it. ABS has saved me *moments* on multiple occasions simply because didn't have to think about pulse braking or finding the limit, just stand on them, steer and what could have been a moment never eventuates. I've never tried stability control but I imagine it is just as good.

Now if we could only stop boy-racers from thinking they can go around 35k/h corners at 140, people from driving after having a dozen tinnies, people from dozing off, mom and pops from overtaking on yellow lines etc etc...

There's some interesting statistics coming out as more cars on the NZ fleet have ABS. There's more people driving off the road and crashing now than there used to be.

eg: Non ABS car comes upon a row of stopped traffic. Driver locks up brakes, and turns steering wheel. Front tyres locked up, so car will go straight ahead regardless of steering input. Car runs into back of row of stopped traffice.

ABS car comes upon the same scenerio. Slams on brakes, turns steering wheel. ABS action ensures that front wheels keep rotating, so steering input achieves change of direction. Car runs into tree beside road.

^^^ So really you are going to be $&#$% either way so who cares about the aids?

I think it is called Darwins theory of evolution

i think its just crap people are just reling on computers for everything and are getting lazy and no one respects the road or lerns what to do if sumthing goes rong
i was listening to sum chicks talk about driving and it was funny coz they were so crap and didint have a clue but hey thats y we have to have abs and this new whatever it is now on all new cars
y coulint i live in the good old days of reail cars and reail drivers?
lol

79rolla wrote:i think its just crap people are just reling on computers for everything

well maybe not quite EVERYTHING yet eh



I'd have to agree with Leon's first post i think

Silent Knight wrote:^^^ So really you are going to be $&#$% either way so who cares about the aids?

With the wonders of ABS, you have a better ability to crash into what you were aiming for when you panic and swing on the steering wheel (eg: tree), rather than crashing into what you were trying to avoid (eg: row of stopped traffic).

So, aim for something soft if you you've got ABS, and a crash. If you don't have insurance, aim for something cheap.

79rolla wrote:
i think its just crap people are just reling on computers for everything


well maybe not quite EVERYTHING yet eh Wink

YET being the main word here theyv got sensors on sum american cars that tell you when your drifying off course ir getting to close to another car
dont they have cars that drive them selvs down the motoway sumwhere in america to?
they have self parking cars and crs that can drive completely by themselvs (but the manifacturers are afraid of installing them incase somone crashes into one and suies them) ect ect ect...

i stick to what i sed befour
i love the old days lol

i think its a good thing.

Im sure it has saved people before, especially the new generations of stability control.
Watched a thing on it and it is really quite amazing what the car can do.

And is it just me or is it bad spelling day today?

I think its a good thing, anything that makes it easier for idiots who follow too close from ramming into me when I stop at the lights or understeering into my lane round a tight corner has to be a good thing.

this is a good question.. i reckon its bad for people like us who want to 'control' the car, sort of like motor, pedals, driver thats all i need

but then you have ur idiot grannies and just your average fat bloke driving his ute that dont care where or how they get there,, they NEED the AIDS!!

back to basics for sure!!!

I'm a bit of a novice when it come to motorsport, but I have done a handful of events, what I know realise is how little I knew beforehand.

No driver-aid can make up for bad driving skills.
That said I don't think having any of those systems makes people drive worse, if they are doing something that stupid, they obviously aren't thinking about the situation at all anyway. So any thing that might stop them hitting me is good.

ABS is a great thing. Anyone who has had a *moment* in the wet will back me up.

Punter wrote:ABS is a great thing. Anyone who has had a *moment* in the wet will back me up.

Yep. You quickly change your tune about ABS when the unexpected happens and you have zero time to react.

Heading to get groceries in the mr2 one night, pissing with rain. This van decides to just pull out infront of me, too many oncoming cars to swerve around and car parks to the left are full. Just stood on the brakes a nanosecond after surveying my escape options, stopped no problems

Yeah. I think the new driving aids are a good thing. Stabilitiy control, TCS, etc. Maybe not cars driving them selves

Also had some scary moments in the R34, following another car (admit, a bit close but not right upt heir ass), going over a bridge, huge line of dead traffic on the other side, front car hits the deck, and I had $&#$% all time to react. ABS FTW

I've always had non ABS cars (SW doesn't have it), so I've learnt how to break up until the point right before locking up.
I've now got a Ford Focus for a work car with ABS, and even when braking heavily in that, its always right before the point where ABS kicks in, which would be lockup point in a non ABS car.
Even in sticky situations, because thats just how brain has had to deal with it.

ABS and its 'grab, release, grab release' method isn't as good as braking the point just before lockup.
In saying that though, I don't think most modern people get to put themselves in a position where they get to learn and react to heavy braking.

Question is, how do you know that you are really braking as hard as possible without locking the wheels up? The amount of adhesion you have depends on the surface, the car/brake combo, whether you are turning etc etc. ABS takes all those variables away.

I used to be a tutor for the Prodrive programme, so we had an opportunity to do little bits of experimentation during our training, just to verify things ourselves. In the 90 degree corner they set up I personally tried threshold braking (braking as hard as possible without lockup) and pulse braking and I found I could consistently brake later and retail control with the pulse braking. Then taking the Sentra through the same corner with the ABS it worked pretty much exactly the same as the pulse braking - same braking point, same amount of retardation.

Remember, ABS used to be legal in F1 but it was outlawed. If F1 teams thought they had a braking advantage by using ABS then surely the same applies to Joe Average on the road? Having had it on my car and used it in many situations and I personally wouldn't own a road car (by choice) without it.

[Edit] Thinking about it I guess the same applies to traction control, stability control etc. If the worlds best drivers think it helps them control the car better and makes it less likely for them to have an accident by having such systems fitted then surely the safety of us mere mortals would be improved by having similar systems fitted to our cars?

I use to have a modern driving aid in the corolla and I found that it made me a lazy driver... more likely to let the car drive itself while I sleep... so I took the power steering out