Caldina engine mount vs SW20 engine mounts

[Adamal]

I've been thinking about maybe getting a BEAMS 3SGE in recent times and think it would be more likely to find one from a Caldina than an SW20.

What I'm wanting to know, is if there is a big difference in engine mounts between the Caldina and SW20. Would they swap right in? Are there differences in the mounts between generations?

Bearing in mind that my SW20 is a 90 and I'd probably get a 3SGE from a 99 Caldina.

Cheers for any help guys.

And no, turbo is not a rational option. I'm under 25 and don't want to pay turbo gas sucking prices

[Twolitre]

It's still a 3S so theoretically it will bolt up but you will have to use your existing mounts, 3 out of the four mounts are on your gearbox anyway so they are not an issue.
Might be fun trying to use a Caldina loom in an SW20 so you might have to rewire your existing loom or just find one from an SW20, another option is an ST202

[RomanV]

Hey Adamal, I have a good idea.
Stop stealing my ideas!


P.S. It wont work. So dont even try. Honest.

Anyway, dont you have other things to concern yourself with at the moment!

Surely that other....THING you are doing will take up most of your income for a while!

[anthonym]

There are a number of detail differences that can make fitting a FWD 3SGE into an MR2 quite tricky, and possibly quite expensive. I know of an MR2 Beams 3SGE that is currently for sale, but I expect RomanV would beat me to a pulp with a big stick if I told you where it is .

[RomanV]

Damn right!

On a related topic, I saw somewhere (cant remember where)

Some dude had managed to shoehorn a blacktop dual vvti altezza motor in the back of his MR2, using the red top manifolds etc.

It looked like quite the squeeze at the cam gears end!

However it is important to note, that it never said that he got the thing going at any stage.

But, it was in there.

[Adamal]

I didn't know you had that idea! Honest!!

Yes, this 'other' thing will be absorbing my income most likely, but when thats done, I was thinking about it later down the line.

What kind of price would one be looking at?

Also, does the redtop engine that I've seen in a few cars not have Dual VVTi that is in the Altezza blacktop?
From my understanding, the Dual VVTi works on both intake and exhaust cams and is going through a constant timing change for optimal power output throughout the whole rev range as opposed to VVT, which only changes the cam profile at 5000rpm (Or there abouts).
IF that is how it works, I'd be more interested in that option.

[RomanV]

Nah, the 'VVT' is what comes on the 20 valve engines. That is the one that ticks over at 5000rpm or so.

The red top beams 3SGE has a continuously variable cam timing, but only on the intake cams.

The later model black top beams engines came with this technology on both the intake and exhaust cams.

However, apparently it is difficult/impossible to fit a black top in an MR2, because you dont have enough clearance to the strut housing at the 'cam gear' end of the engine. Because the VVTI mechanism sticks out a bit further IIRC.


Red top engines are good for 200hp or so,
while the black top engines are good for 210hp.

However it is worth noting, that when tuning these engines for big HP numbers, usually the first thing that is done is binning the VVTI mechanism for regular fixed cams.

I think Nemesis was saying that a few of the guys are getting a good 240-250 hp out of these engines fairly easily.

I wonder how a 250hp NA Mr2 would stack up against an S2000.

[CozmoNz]

Nah, the 'VVT' is what comes on the 20 valve engines. That is the one that ticks over at 5000rpm or so.

turns on when you put your foot down.

as low as around 2k rpm isnt it?

[RomanV]

My car currently weighs 1150 or so kgs.
(Which was with everything in the car, half a tank of gas)

If I could lose another 50 kgs or so:
(erm, well the car at least )


SW20 with red top=
1100 kgs, 200hp
= 5.5 kgs per HP

with a bit of work:
1100 kgs, 240hp.
= 4.6 kg per HP.



s2000:
1,260kgs, 240 hp.
= 5.25 kg per HP

So even a standard red top motor in the MR2 would have a power/weight ratio almost equivalent to an S2000, and with a bit of tweaking, it can better it.

To equal the S2000 power/weight ratio I would have to make 210hp. Doesnt sound too hard.


P.S. Please excuse my S2000 obsession.

[Adamal]

Ahh but lets not forget its not all about peak power now Because we don't launch our cars from 6800rpm and not get wheelspin! (Or a trashed clutch!)

So with these redtops that people bin the VVTi cam from vs the stock cam, how does it effect the power throughout the whole range?

[RomanV]

When you ditch the VVTI mechanism, it definitely hurts your low end power.

Im not sure how the VVTI would react if you got a cam grind either - becuase the computer would be expecting to optimise the cam angle based on the original cam. So it could possibly make things worse.
Although im not terribly sure on this, perhaps some of the altezza boys will know a bit more.

The VVTI system can alter the cam angle 60 degrees. I would imagine that when they were testing it, they would set the cam at a certain position, run it on the dyno. Alter it slightly, run it on the dyno. Do this a whole lot, and find out which cam position makes the most power at what RPM. (I suppose that is kind of obvious )
The problem being, that as soon as you alter the cams, I would imagine all of this hard work would go out the window.
Unless you want to spend hours and hours on a dyno retuning it, as well as the Motec computer you will need to run the aftermarket VVTI adjustment.

So the VVTI is cool if you want to keep it standard, but can be a pain if you are looking for some more grunt. It is understandable why tuners would want to bin it, I could imagine it could cause a lot of headaches.

Ahh but lets not forget its not all about peak power now

Yeah, you are right! Hmmm, how can we get lots of area under that torque curve?
A turbo charger.

Come on, you know its true!
Hehe.

[Adamal]

Bah. Turbo is to overdone

Its the easy way to gain power. Slap on a turbo, chur.

It's much like tuning a guitar for a Slipknot concert. Average punter isn't going to care about how in tune the guitar is as long as its loud and distorted.

Whereas N/A is much like tuning a Violin for a Symphony. It's the little fine bits that add to it to make it appreciated.
That and I dunno if you've seen 'Hannibal', but he'll eat you if you're out of tune (Not that that has anything to do with it!)

[[V8ROLA]]

hahah how bout 1100kg's and 300+hp N/A LOL thats my car anyway

our panel beater has just imported a wrecked 2000 altezza for $6000
and man does it look good love the looks of those engines and they would look styly in an MR bay

[Adamal]

Well aiming that high with a 4cyl engine is a bit out of my budget range
That and I don't want something TOO gas guzzling (Read: Turbo)

Although your RX7 is original and droolworthy I like originality.

[RomanV]

Just out of interest, I THINK this is a blacktop 3sge shoehorned into the back of an MR2 using the red top manifolds etc.

http://photobucket.com/albums/v468/chen ... 20project/

Can anyone confirm yes/no?

Or is it just a red top perhaps?

[Al]

as well as the Motec computer you will need to run the aftermarket VVTI adjustment.

Or the Apexi Power FC for Altezza or Turbo Altezza.

[anthonym]

Just out of interest, I THINK this is a blacktop 3sge shoehorned into the back of an MR2 using the red top manifolds etc.

http://photobucket.com/albums/v468/chen ... 20project/

Can anyone confirm yes/no?

Or is it just a red top perhaps?

Yes it's a blacktop, and appears to a very good illustration as to why it's a silly idea . Hard to tell from the pics but he appears be using the standard MR2 RHS mount, which means he's removed the Altezza tensioner; not a good idea IMO. You can also see that the RHS coolant hose dosen't fit properly and that extensive fabrication/pissing about is required. I really can't understand why anyone would want to do this apart from wank value, especially given that the pissant 10hp difference is accounted for by an RPM increase, not the dual VVTi. Actually I reckon you'd probably get 10hp extra by throwing away the VVTi and using lightweight aluminium cam pulleys.

[Adamal]

Thats an interesting link. You weren't kidding about lack of clearance between the strut and the cam gears.

Also, Roman and I were having a discussion the other night about the exhaust cam. Seeing as this is a non-VVTi operated cam, what effect would it have with replacing it? More specifically, would it have any resulting effects on the intake cam? I think it should be fine, but would just like to know instead of assume!

[Adamal]

Not cool!

[dodgy]

that pics not col, but its right.
ive put a caldina 99" into my sw20 , motor goes in easy, not to much to mod.
ive taken off the vvti and put on light weight camwheels, its easier to tune and can easily get more power.
my moto is out atm, the shell has just been lightened and a roll cage installed. total weight including driver will be close to 850kg.
have got motor in bits atm shaven 1.2mm off the block (is plenty of clearence) to boost compression. running sw20 turbo gbox.
the blacktop altezza is different, but not by much. we also have one going into a ae85 for the targa next year (hopefully!!).