3SGE build up discussion - input please :)

[Malcolm]

Hi there folks

Been thinking about building a moderately cheap but competitive car next year so me and my gf can race regularly (mostly at drags for now) without the high expenses that would be associated with trying to do so with for instance my sw11 (ie I break the gearbox in that it will be f*cking expensive!).

So anyway, I would appreciate input on the most effective mods to get power out of an NA 3sge. I would appreciate it if people don't just regurgitate info from magazines and other unreliable info, I really prefer real world experience if possible. So anyway, here's what I've been thinking, I would like to know if anything I've included is a bit of a waste of money (ie little gain for time/money involved) or if I've left out anything that is worthwhile.

Engine:
Gen 2 3SGE (as found in st18* celicas and early sw20's)
Main reason for this is availability and cheapness. Gen 3 would be nice for the shim under buckets and possibly larger valves?
Probably leave the bottom end stock, although it might be worth rebuilding and balancing the pistons and rods to allow the redline to be increased.

Headwork:
Rebuild.
Cams (I would probably talk to Kelford cams and/or Lynn Rogers to see what they suggest for cams, as I have very little experience with playing around with cams on NAs. )
Shimless bucket or shim under bucket conversion (maybe?)
Skim to increase compression ratio (stock is 10:1, maybe go up to 12:1?)
Adjustable cam gears
Maybe stronger valve springs to help with increased revs?

I/E:
Quad throttles adapted from a 20v (is it worth the extra $$ for black top ones?)
Tuned length trumpets (anyone have a good site for learning about Helmholtz tuning? Redmist?) - how much power would be lost running filter socks instead of exposed trumpets?
Exhaust - Seeing as it's going to be a strictly race oriented motor, I'm thinking 4->1 headers - is there much to be gained by tuning the lengths of the primary runners like with the inlet runners?

Fuel/Ignition:
Is there any worthwhile power gains from running wasted spark or DFI instead of a dizzy? Also would an MSD or similar coil be worthwhile (I'm sceptical about them)
The standard injectors are about 310cc/min I believe, I will probably run them unless they prove to be too small in which case I'll whack in some 440's
ECU will either be a link plus or a microtech. I think good tuning will be far more important than lots of extra features which I wont need

Other stuff:
I was thinking about having a switch+relay to electrically disengage the alternator during drag runs to free up a bit of power. Underdriving the water pump isn't a particularly viable option since it's driven by the cambelt and it's pulley isn't easily removable. I think the above, with suitable cams should allow the engine to run to about 8,500rpm


So, anything else worth doing? I thought about a stroker but I would rather have high revs and keep the car under 2L for classification purposes

[KinLoud]

Go for a beams motor - basic cost won't be too bad compared with all the upgrades you are thinking of.
What car was this going into?

Ken
Ham
021 408 863

[Malcolm]

aw11
problem is finding a beams motor....they aren't all that common y'see

[RomanV]

Hmmm, well I see plenty of GT caldinas around these days, and they all have redtop beams 3SGE's in them. (Although the 190hp version as opposed to 200hp version)

Im sure at least one of them have crashed.

Although people say they beams motors are so impossible to find, I dont think many people actually look.

Like how a mate of mine got one with 20,000kms on it for less than a grand, which had been sitting in the front of a celica at a wreckers for over two years. They couldnt get rid of apparently.

I think a lot of people think they are hard to find, so dont even bother looking.

It would be worth getting Warwick to have a look for you I reckon.
Or even call around a few wreckers perhaps.
Its worth the 40hp headstart that you would get!

The only problem with getting a redtop from the caldina or Rav4 is that they are all automatic.
Which means the ECU throws a paddy if you have it hooked up to a manual tranny apparently. Due to VVTI settings that take info from what the Auto box is doing, or some such thing.

However if you replace the ECU with aftermarket, you lose all of the factory VVTI settings which I would imagine are quite good.
You could use an Apexi PowerFC designed for an Altezza however, as these apparently have scope for VVTI adjustment, and are designed to run on an almost identical engine.

Finding a redtop from a crashed manual gen 5 SW20 would be ideal, but this is where these motors get their 'hard to find' reputation from.

[kilowatts]

I Thought the caldina beams engine is 210 hp .Thus meaning the japanese toyota specs i read are wrong. Anyway i think paying a little extra for either beams engine would be a better option. Or use the head off the beams and bolt up to your gen 3 block.

[Caveman]

If you were going to build up a gen2 3sge

crack test and polish the crank and rods
shot peen the rods
thiner head gasket
meaty set of cams. 300 plus (atleast 250 at 50thou lift) might have to go shim under bucket, not sure on what 3sge is.
9mm plus lift
valve springs to take the lift
computer (mega squirt if your feeling brave)
bigger fueling

Another thing to consider is matching your power curve to your gearing. With a high reving race NA motor you usually want a high 1st gear then tight ratios through the gears.

If I were you i'd go 4age. Sounds so tipical but these a reason everyone goes 4age. Unless your want to race in the 2L class.

Have you considered KP-4AGE?

[anthonym]

I Thought the caldina beams engine is 210 hp .Thus meaning the japanese toyota specs i read are wrong. Anyway i think paying a little extra for either beams engine would be a better option. Or use the head off the beams and bolt up to your gen 3 block.

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, so you'll fit right in here . Gen 3 and vvti 3SGEs are completely different and incompatible. And only the dual vvti beams engine fitted to manual Altezzas has 210ps.

Malcolm, I respectfully suggest you harden up, your proposal is a false economy, the cost of running a second car will easily outweigh any damage you might do to your so called SW11, as well as being slower than dave on his skateboard .

[kilowatts]

Sorry i assumed the blocks were relatively similar.Assuming is the mother of all f-ck ups.

[Malcolm]

Malcolm, I respectfully suggest you harden up, your proposal is a false economy, the cost of running a second car will easily outweigh any damage you might do to your so called SW11, as well as being slower than dave on his skateboard .

the difference is that an NA aw11 would be more economical and safer (esp. in the case of my gf racing it ) to race competitively than the 3sgte powered one. to make the 3sgte powered one competitive in 2wd turbo classes means it would have to be running very close to 10s (to stay out of the pro class), whereas an NA would be competitive running 13's.
I did realise a problem though, which is that in the NSDW competition NA's includes rotaries, of which there were a couple running high 11's last season. Maybe I should just give up on racing anything competitively for another 4 years when I'll be out of uni...

[RomanV]

Well yes the initial cost of setting up a 3sge in the car will be cheaper.
You can always add bolt ons as you go I suppose, and pull the engine out for adding cams etc when the time comes.

But NA horsepower doesnt come cheap, the cost per HP and overall cost in the long run will be much higher IMO.

There is virtually no aftermarket available for the early 3SGE, as anyone willing to spend the money can probably already afford the turbo motor to start with.

Its not like the 4AGE where it is predominantly tuned in NA form, and has a lot of goodies available.

Surely you could set a rev limit or boost controlled setting for when your GF is driving?

[RomanV]

According to cartest (which has proven reasonably accurate so far, withing .1 of a second accuracy for most cars that i have tried)

If you had a standard 190hp caldina 3sge with a manual 3sge tranny, and your AW11 weighed 1000kgs, you should be good for about 14 seconds flat. (I would say 190hp is a reasonable number to expect out of a tickled gen 2? They only make 156hp standard )

However if you increase the rev limit to 8000rpm, add 20hp and a little more maximum torque at the same RPM (to represent some engine work of some description) your car would alledgedly be capable of a 13.5

With 250hp@8000rpm, same max torque as before, 8500 rev limit, you should be capable of a 13.1 second quarter.

Whether 250hp and an 8500rpm rev limit are possible on a reasonable budget though is another question.

Especially if you plan on starting with a gen 2, these numbers will be very hard to reach. And these are approximately the numbers required to get into the low 13s.

[anthonym]

the difference is that an NA aw11 would be more economical and safer (esp. in the case of my gf racing it ) to race competitively than the 3sgte powered one. to make the 3sgte powered one competitive in 2wd turbo classes means it would have to be running very close to 10s (to stay out of the pro class), whereas an NA would be competitive running 13's.

Ah, you didn't say you want to race and win the class, that makes a huge difference to the cost involved. It's a shame there doesn't appear to be an NA class above 2l anymore, IIRC that was populated by lardy whales with no traction, and a V6 AW11 would clean up .

I did realise a problem though, which is that in the NSDW competition NA's includes rotaries, of which there were a couple running high 11's last season. Maybe I should just give up on racing anything competitively for another 4 years when I'll be out of uni...

Winning a class is always going to be expensive, but I still think you could have a lot of fun with what you have now. If you stick to a hp limit I'll be safer and you won't break it, and you'll be learning and developing it for when you can have a real crack later on.

[anthonym]

:oops: Sorry i assumed the blocks were relatively similar.Assuming is the mother of all f-ck ups.

Yep, but at least you realise that . The actual blocks are interchangeable if you ditch the vvti, it's the combustion chamber/piston shape that's completely different, the dome on the gen 3 pistons will not actually physically fit inside the vvti chamber.

[RomanV]

If you stick to a hp limit I'll be safer and you won't break it,

Freudian slip Anthony?
You dont have a secret drag car on the build do you?

Yes I know its a typo

[RS13]

As a side note, there was a yellow SW20 with 3SGE, only had a pod filter and large muffler, which ran a 14.4 down here a while ago. It was running 17s as well.. I'd assume with a few more HP in a lighter AW, you'd easily be in the 13s?

[RomanV]

Wow! Thats quite an impressive time for an NA.

Especially with 17s on!

Its all in the launch I suppose.

I wonder what my bag of bolts could do.

[kilowatts]

What about the 1.8 vvti out of the late model corolla or celica. 141 kw pretty close to 190 hp stock. Easy to get your hands on one of them.

[Al]

As a side note, there was a yellow SW20 with 3SGE, only had a pod filter and large muffler, which ran a 14.4 down here a while ago. It was running 17s as well.. I'd assume with a few more HP in a lighter AW, you'd easily be in the 13s?

The yellow one with the veilside kit? That had a claimed 14.8 on his for sale ad.

[RS13]

The yellow one with the veilside kit? That had a claimed 14.8 on his for sale ad.

Ah ok, I could've sworn Tommy ran a 14.4, I have a couple of his runs on vhs somewhere.. I stand corrected! Still, a very reasonable time for a near-standard 3SGE.

[suberimakuri]

my gen2 made 109kw at the wheels with my silvertop quad throttle manifold setup, megasquirt for fuel, and only 25 deg ignition timing.

quad setup for sale on trademe.