16v smallport and 20v dizzy

[NA Drifter]

Wondering of anyone know if the 16v smallport 4age dizzy give out the same signal as the blacktop 20v dizzy?

They both have got 4 wires dizzy plug.
Also are all the sensors between these engine the same(give out the same signal etc)? They share the same type plugs as well.

[sergei]

they do give out same signal but colour codes are different, same goes for other sensors, the only big difference is the TPS and ISCV, plugs maybe different...

[NA Drifter]

cool, thanks. So as long as I got the spec sheet for both engine/wirings/plugs/ECU then I should be fine? Just need to trace which is which? TPS wiring configuration might be upside down between the 20v and 16v?

[sergei]

I can't remember wether 16v has got switch type or potentiometer type TPS (20v), but other that that most of the sensors are compatible, but 20v does not have cold start injector, also I think AFM has different internals (completely different signal output), also ISCV is slighty different construction on 20v (it does not have water going through it, also it is mounted on the head, but it should work of the same signal - PWM).

[NA Drifter]

cool, thanks alot.
What I'm planning to do is to run 20v silvertop quads on the 16v redtop engine and using blacktop 20v ECU.
I think it will work and I'm going to give it a go as the ECU just arrived today.
I hope the timing etc will be fine. I will not have VVT fuction on the 16v. They are off anyway when at high rpm.

All 4age Alternator the same??

Just worry about the cams spec different might affect how the engine going to run.

By the way, have anyone tried this?

[sergei]

I guess being a MAP sensored ECU, it will not run well with 16v engine as cams/head/timing are way different to black top thus resulting in different manifold vacuum...

[NA Drifter]

yeh I though of that too.
I'll compensate that with running thinner head gasket (TRD 0.8mm) and possibly get some cams that are close spec with std black top.

[RedMist]

I gather you are planning on running the silvertop manifold and plugging the head injector bosses as well? If not you'll have to get some top feed injectors around the 295cc mark. The 235cc injectors in the smallport (if it works) will be open for the injector duty cycle the blacktop ecu will predict for the larger blacktop (295cc) injectors. IE considerably less fuel, very lean.
I think you'll also end up having to create some form of speed sensor emulator as it'll go into limp home mode without it.
I'd also attempt to swap as many sensors between the two as possible. Sensors such as temp are eCU calibrated, if Toyota have changed them between the smallport and blacktop you may find the calibration out, and may force the ECU to run cold start fuel continiously.

IMO, megasquirt.

[NA Drifter]

I'll run back the smallport injector as I have already got a custom intake manifold made to for the quads. The cc rating will be slidly lower, but I have got a SAFC2 so can play around with the fuel mixture. if that fail, will fit bigger injector that have same impedance.

Speed sensor?.. The AE86 factory have got speed sensor on them, so i'll just hook that one up.
I'll try to run all the 16v sensors and hope that will work. if that doesn't I'll measure the ohm of each sensors between both engine type and go from there.

Yeah Megasquirt, well, we got to try new things you know... Karl have done just that. So I'm going different routh... as this is a budget home job too

[RedMist]

Sorry to say this, but I think you'll get considerably better performance from a standard smallport.
For instance. The injectors in a 20 valve are 26% bigger, placed in a different location, with a different VE. The ECU wont cater to any of it. Will the SAFC2 allow you to increase duty cycle by 30%? I had thought all it does is fool the ECU into believing its under more load, so it assigns fuel values higher in the map. If so. its simply not going to work without the engine being very very lean.

Trying to get the ECU from not going into limp home mode will also be an effort and a half. Speed sensor in an 86? are you sure? It may have a speedo cable insert into the box, but a speed sensor? ABS style? Also just because the sensors have the same resistance at rest doesnt mean they have the same peak or any other values. VVT enable? ISC? AC? ABS? I suspect its all going to cause you issues.


I'm not trying to put you off, just make you aware that its no where near as simple as you think. I'd be very tempted to sell off the bling SAFC2 and get the functional and cheap Megasquirt.

[sergei]

he does not need to emulate speed sensor as the signal comes from speedometer - he already has it. The sensor from gearbox on AE101-111 goes to speedometer where it is translated into formed speed signal wich is in fact the same wave form as in any EFI AE8X-AE9X, as they have a reed switch inside the speedometer wich translates rotation of speedo cable into an electrical signal. As for ABS and AC these thing are irelevant as I never enqounter any problems at all with AE82 blacktop install, wich in fact had ABS. In AE101-111 ABS is dealt by separate ECU and has got nothing to do with EFI ecu, as for AC, it will work fine disconected. The only input and output for AC are: AC idle up solenoid, and clutch activation, so it will know when to enrichen/idle up the engine (so it will not stall). As for toyota temperature sensors I'm pretty sure they are identical on all early '80- late '90, there are two different plugs, but they still behave the same. The only problem he might have is TPS and ISCV, he will have to use 20v TPS and ISCV due to different type (maybe) and mounting.

[suberimakuri]

tps plug is same on 16v smallport and 20v. But you need to swap some of the wires around. Read the megasquirt manual for how to work out what wire is what.

coolant sensors are the same.

speed sensor as sergei said, I wouldn't connect it.

blacktop ecu is map, but I'm not sure where the air temp sensor is mounted, possibly in the airbox, you can dangle this in the air around the throttle bodies.


Looking good so far.

Scary parts:
1) As Redmist said, the injector sizing is way different and even if you find some rb20de injectors and plugs, the head is way different, and compression way different = VE Table way different.
2) A bigport 4age with ITB's and perfect tune is only 5% power up on stock bluetop. With a less than satisfactory tune... it will be the transient conditions that will be horrible. Accell enrichment, etc.
Although a smallport does drive better with ITB's compared to bluetop, it's still a relatively small gain that I wouldn't want to be mucking about trying to tune it WITHOUT a standalone.
It's no turbo on stock ecu where you can get 20%+ power gain.


I would be tempted to sell 16v loom & ecu, 20v loom & ecu, safc2.... then get a second hand ecu of some kind. There's a fair bit of coin in those bits you've collected Keith.

[NA Drifter]

SAFC2 can adjust the fuel mixture -50% to +50%
The ECU I got is the blacktop manual and is basic model. Haven't got the loom for it but 2 of the plugs are same as redtop with different configuration.

Yeah thought of selling the "collection" but still not enough for aftermarket ECU. got Quote for V5 Link, install and tune for around $1500. There might be a few hundred extra as usual....

There might be not a heck lots of gain(if any), but what I'm after is better trottle response. As a bonus, they sounds great..

Will check the installation with a factory fitted blacktop car, to make sure all the Map reading are close.

Will bump up compression too.. with skim head + thin gasket

[suberimakuri]

gah, second hand link costs a lot less then 1500..... install and tune is something that costs you almost nothing...