Newbie, help with 20V turbo build

[fivebob]

fivebob send me some alloypistons and ill happly precep them up for too what ever your heart desires

ps t89 is a misprint on my behalf there is no such temper

Sorry to inform you but there is http://aluminium.matter.org.uk/aluselect/14_tempergroup.asp?tempergroupid=20.
However you missed the point entirely, if you knew as much as you say you do, then you would know as well as I do that 4000 series alloys are not heat treatable, so the T range of tempers does not apply.

but hey if you kknew anything about tempering you would have picked this up

oops looks like I’m not the one that doesn’t know about tempering alloys (see above)

we heat treat a fair bit of the components we use at work
normally 6061 and 2023

When did PAS start using 2023, and what are it’s advantages over 2024? No I’m not trying to take the piss, I’m genuinely interested the last lot of scrap I bought from them was all 2024 (T6 from memory) but that was in the late eighties so I’m not up with the current state of play there. All the scrap that I buy now from the workshops in Melbourne, where they make Boeing and Airbus parts, has been 2024-T351 so I’m wondering what the advantages of 2023 are, and how it's composition differs from 2024?

Oh and BTW do you know of a source for 0.25mm(.010”) or 0.3mm(.012”) 2024-T3 or T351 alloy I’ve just about run out and my usual supplier has gone out of business.

five bob the fact is i do this for a living you do not
that is the end of it

No my profession does not involve using aircraft grade alloys, but my hobby of the last 35 years does, which strangely enough means that I’m interested in learning about all the various alloys and their respective properties and uses. In the wrought alloys I mainly use 2011, 2024, 6061 & 7075 for various items. 2024 & 7075 for making conrods & the others for general purpose use. In the hypereutectic grades I still have some jealously guarded Mahle 18% & 24% bar and some 30% russian made Sintered Al/Si that I use for pistons, all of which are a PITA to machine on my lathe.

if you advice to heat teat alloys im happy to talk saltbaths soak time temps and quench times and quench water temps or perhaps you want to get into precep temps and times for artifical aging
but ffs
give up
i work to a millitary spec so i really have no choice in procedures that we use

Most of the uses I put them to don’t require me to heat treat, though if I need to I usually take them to the shop that does my castings for me as I don’t have the equipment (apart from a tempering oven)

like i said
you have quite honestly shown to me and any other person who dose work with alloy you have no idea what cold working is or even how heat treatment is done

i have no doubt that google will help you with you endevours to show how much others know about the subject but thats not you

Au contraire, I’m not the one with egg on their face, and whats more the bulk of what I posted is from memory, of course verifying that of which I'm uncertain with a quick search to make sure I wasn’t having a “senior moment”. along with a reference where it was appropriate.

While you may like to think that I know little about this subject, because I don’t work with alloys for a living, you would be very wrong as I believe my posts have shown. As stated before I’ve worked with the stuff a lot longer than you, or a great deal of the members of Toyspeed, have been on this earth. In that time I’ve met a great number of very knowledgeable people who forgotten far more of the subject that I will ever know, not all of these people have been scientists, some were simple foundry men and some were engineers, and some were just hobbyists like myself. I listened to, learned from, and questioned these people to the point today that I feel confident in specifying what alloys and what tempers are required for the components I get made, and can tell when I’m being BS’d.

time to put up or shut up fivebob
come see me at work ill happy to give you a reall close look at a potassium salt bath

I believe I’ve put up numerous times, I’ve quoted reputable sources where required and have tried to keep on topic, but I’m surprised, and somewhat disappointed that the mods here haven’t call you in your veiled threats, doesn’t worry me, but it hardly makes you look good, as my father always said “violence is the last resort of the fool”, usually right after he’d thrown them into the cells

Whilst it morbidly fascinating to watch someone slowly lower themselves into the wood chipper, it’s somewhat sad. So I would suggest that you may like to consider whether or not a reply to this, or, indeed, the manner of such a reply, is in your best interests.

You genuinely seem to believe what you post, so I’m prepared to consider your posts simply ill-informed and not a deliberate attempt to mislead or somehow to prove how “big” you are. In that light I’m happy to let the matter drop and won’t even ask for the apology that I richly deserve.

[fivebob]

This is the original post Do we need to make another post regarding stuff thats over 99% of our heads?

My apologies if the thread became more technical than you would have liked, but IMO there was no other way to debunk the misinformation that was being put forward. Threads evolve, sometimes away from the direction of the topic originally posted, so if you really feel the need why don't you strip the piston composition discussion off into another thread?

As to whether or not it's above the heads of 99% of the readers, maybe, but then again so is reading a sparkplug, another thing that all car enthusiasts should know about

While it may not seem so to you, IMHO the composition and characteristics of the Toyota, and aftermarket, pistons are very important subjects, which need to be fully understood if you wish to build a reliable engine. To that end I had a very interesting discussion last night with a very knowledgable person, on the subject of why Toyota pistons fail in the manner they do, and what can be done to stop them from falling apart. He's offered to dig out the research he did on running street driven blown engines on low octane fuel and to go through the data I have to help determine and perhaps finally solve the problems. Of course if you think that that's of no benefit to the members of Toyspeed, I'll be happy to keep it to myself.

[Mr Revhead]

i for one would be VERY keen to hear the info on toyota pistons fivebobs mate has....

i would also be keen to know exactly which 'hobbie' of his involves russian military spec alloys!!
your not the guy who built the cruise missile in his garage are you?!?

[fivebob]

i for one would be VERY keen to hear the info on toyota pistons fivebobs mate has....

I'll let you know what comes of the research, right now he's given me a few ideas and has confirmed that detonation is the most likely cause of the cracking problem. What we are concentrating on now is how to combat the detonation so we can retain the Toyota pistons and still make good HP. Reducing squish clearance and running methanol injections seems the most promising route so he's going back through the info he's got from when he was running top fuel dragsters and high performance street engines.

i would also be keen to know exactly which 'hobbie' of his involves russian military spec alloys!!
your not the guy who built the cruise missile in his garage are you?!?

(This may be getting off topic a bit but...)
No, but I've met him on a few occasions because he and I share the same hobby

Though his branch of the hobby differs from mine, I collect racing and speed engines (I have about 900 of them) and concentrate on getting model aircraft (and sometimes tethered cars) to fly as fast as possible in circles while hanging on for dear life at the other end of a pair of 0.4mmx 18m wires. By rights I should be attending the world champs which are on right now in the USA, but I haven't had the time lately to sort out my equipment and these engines are the most fussy infernal combustion engines on the planet, not suprising as it puts out around 2.4HP@42,000rpm for it's 2.5cc (960HP/Litre) and the models fly at 300+Km/h.

Here's a photo of the piston (32% silicon russian military alloy) after some mild detonaton, notice the sand blasted finish, the telltale sign of detonation.


This is the model(minus engine cowling), I didn't build this one, it came straight from it's Russian maker and ex world champ and has done 305km/h.

The wing is made from 0.25mm 2024 alloy, which is firstly softened by heating so that it can be folded without cracking, then re-tempered to T6 afterwards, the wing is glued to a stub made from 2024 which is bolted to the "pan" which in this case is made from the Russian equivalent of 6061, inside the engine are several other exotic alloys like a chromed copper berylium cylinder. The expansion chamber is made from a billet of 2011, the calculations involved in making such an apparently simple device are mind boggling to say the least and the wave theory almost requires a PhD to understand. The rest of the model is made from carbon fibre and a little bit of Balsa wood and the control system is made from titanium.

I trust that explains why I know so much about these alloys and their properties

[[V8ROLA]]

hahaha i can see this is a "MINES BIGGER THAN URS" post LOL

i know nothing of what you guys are talking about (well alittle) but i can see that the tension is high in here

remembering we ALL are only human and ALL humans make mistakes!!!!
right or wrong i think, fivebob and vvega should kiss and make up LOL
thinking bout it if you guys put BOTH ya heads together we could have a good team there

so again KISS and make up you sound like you guys can both share some good info between each other weather you work the job or read the job.

[JRCOZY]

k well im going to bring this back from the dead.

who cares about pages 2,3,4 haha
all i asked back then was how to use the 20v head, simple use all the 20v gear, thats the answer!

Well we didnt end up doing that, you all know the ROLYOU stolen corrolla, thats what we ended up doing.
That engine has turned out a c**t to get back, but lets not get into that.

NEW PROJECT
AE92 GTI, 1600 20v black top.
trying to get a low comp ratio, got mean carrillo rods for this engine.
ACL/ROSS sell a 20V turbo piston with the 5 valve cut outs, but its 8.5-1.
We want something around 8.0-1 because going to run around 25psi.
Think bazdas engine but 1600, hes helped me heaps with my own car and this new toy for Jason.

http://www.aclperformance.com.au/Toyota ... istons.htm
I can get mean deals on ACL.
or should i use a lower comp 16v piston from a different make?

edit, ACL says for silver top only, WTF, surely would work on our ZE block with blacktop 20v head.

thanks guys

[Mr Revhead]

whats wrong with using the 8:1 4agze pistons?


yikes... and yes thats quite a revival from the dead

[JRCOZY]

stock pistons wont support the 250 wheel kw we are going for, barry got 330 on the 1800 so lets see what we can get with the 1600

or did you mean a forged aftermarket version.
i did ask that in that last post, i said should i just use a low comp 16v piston and not worry about the cut outs

[matt dunn]

So the final verdict is that it's as easy as just using all the silvertop stuff from the head gasket up and use the 20V belt,

and if you want to see proof that they then become an interferance engine,
i'll post the pics when I get the head off and show you what 12 out of 20 bent valves look like.

Matt

[JRCOZY]

no silver top
we using all black top stuff like barrys 7AGTE

[matt dunn]

same stuff different colour,

Same applies but replace the word silver with black, lol

[NZ_AE86]

stock pistons wont support the 250 wheel kw we are going for, barry got 330 on the 1800 so lets see what we can get with the 1600

or did you mean a forged aftermarket version.
i did ask that in that last post, i said should i just use a low comp 16v piston and not worry about the cut outs

Stock pistons will handle plenty! 250+ kw at the wheels. Think Speedtech.

[IH8TEC]

no silver top
we using all black top stuff like barrys 7AGTE

shame about the other motor. i'll get barry to let you know what my beast puts out, be all going next week.

you decided what computer? you know what turbo etc your looking at? make sure you get a block with oil squirters, i'm using silvertop block, bu got the low comp pistons modified. worth it i think, especially with the power your wanting

[crnkin]

stock pistons wont support the 250 wheel kw we are going for, barry got 330 on the 1800 so lets see what we can get with the 1600

or did you mean a forged aftermarket version.
i did ask that in that last post, i said should i just use a low comp 16v piston and not worry about the cut outs

Just to raise a couple of points:

1. Baz could have made probly 200kw more with a better head/cam/valve combo

2. 8.5 IS a low comp piston, in my opinion too low for only 250wkw

3. Anrgy_4ag of team hinga makes 363 rwkw on 8.5:1 comp pistons at 30psi, with a proper ported head, cams, and valve combo

4. If a stock $500 8.0:1 4agze block doesnt make 250rwkw, your unlucky

Just to stir a bit. but its all the truth