F1 and Toyota...

[2jayzgte]

I like to think I'm a bit of F1 fan so it is really hard to watch a big team like Toyota struggle they way they are struggling I mean for a team that spends the amount of money they do to perform as badly as they do I've got to think they can't be staying in F1 for much longer.They are not even close to Ferrari or Mclaren or even BMW/Sauber for that matter they re just battling away in the mid-field with tems like Red Bull and Renault.I have been keeping a eye on there progress the last 3 years and I just cn't seem to see lot of progress and when you add it all up vs money spent surely they can't keep trolling on this path of mediocrity for much longer.Just wondering every body else's thoughts on this...

[Chickenman]

I did hear rumours that Toyota and Honda would pull out if planned engine development restrictions came about.

The chance to improve with more work and discipline has to appeal to the Japanese entrants, it's also a test of ingenuity, Toyota love a challenge and like to bend the rules (=Banned from rallying) so as long as they have the ability to compare their latest ideas and advancements against established teams and engineers I think Toyota will hang around.

Besides... the data they get fom running an F1 car is invaluable when they put together the latest FWD Camry

[Mr Revhead]

i think we will see a change in philosophy behind how the team is run.

another thing to think about, in the last 30 years only 5 teams have won the champs
lotus once
benneton/renault 4
then the rest divided amoungst ferrari, mclaren and williams.

[Adamal]

Besides... the data they get fom running an F1 car is invaluable when they put together the latest FWD Camry

That got a giggle outta me

But I think its safe to say Toyota are fairly new in a race that is 'vintage'. Groups like Ferrari have got YEARS of experience and data that Toyota don't! I think they'll get there in the end though.

[RedMist]

But I think its safe to say Toyota are fairly new in a race that is 'vintage'. Groups like Ferrari have got YEARS of experience and data that Toyota don't! I think they'll get there in the end though.

Personally I think thats bollocks. Toyota have spent years racing now, they had a reasonable car first year but dont appear to have capitalized on that and ramped up the development the same as the major players. Toyota have thrown a tonne of good money at F1, and yet still show no progress. I'm not talking about a front running car, just a car capible of coming a consistent 4th or 5th. F1 isnt driven by copouts, its about being better than the fuggin great. They have the money, where's the results?

Personally I'd love to see Toyota back in rallying. But hey thats my slant, and in reality I know there is little chance of seeing it happen. I even have my problems with rallying. Bring back the day's of having 5000 homologation specials on the road that the likes of even I can buy (given a small lotto win)

In regards to Toyota cheating.... its rife... spend very large sums of money, add some huge ego's and rules are bound to be stretched. Some of the best stories used to come from Lotus where their cars were notoriously light. All cars were required to drain the tank on the scales while the inspector watched. Lotus had a special syphon hose with a hole in it. A well placed thumb stopped it leaking until the tank was drained to about a third full. Then the thumb was released the syphon sucked air and the inspector instructed "Look she's dry!". Lotus even tried running an engine 200cc over the F1 limit! But it was slower than their legit engine so only ran in qualifying.

[Mr Revhead]

cheating is just one interpritation of the rules

[the fallen303]

nah, at first it's counted as different, until they start to win, then it's cheating if they're not winning, then it's just a failed way of trying to get faster

[malc]

I see toyotas f1 problem is that they think that having the biggest budget will guarantee them success. The most successful teams have years and years of experience, and the right people also with years of experience.
I think they have the wrong philosophy to win at f1.
The reason there are a select few teams which are always on top is firstly because of their knowledge of the sport and secondly they too have big budgets.

[Si]

Toyota love a challenge

They do, but that bit them hard when they decided to spend a year developing an engine that the FIA banned the next year.

Cost them about 10mill in non entry payments plus a years worth of R&D costs....

[GX61 Mark II]

I love my Toyotas.... but.....

GO SUPER AGURI!!!!

http://www.saf1.org

http://www.takumasato.org

[matt dunn]

they re just battling away in the mid-field with tems like Red Bull and Renault.

so they are as good as renault?

wern't they up the front end of the field last year?

the problem is that the cars are so technically advance that .0025 sec per lap makes your car slow.

they have spent a lot of money,
and they have only had average results,
but remember thy are developing Formula 1 engine's
and formula one cars. it will take time to get both working at optimun together to get the good results.

As long as they dont get restricted on what they can do in development they will stay there for a while yet.

[Jdawg]

They're beating Honda at the moment so there is a bright spot for them.

Apparently, some ofthe vast sum of money, noteably the 23 million spent on Ralf Schumacher, is to be saved soon!!

[2jayzgte]

The only reason there up with Renault I believe is because of them switching to the Bridgestone tyre and the fact that Fernando Alonso is alot better than the 2 drivers they have now.My thing is with Toyota is how many more years can they afford to keep putting there MEGA dollars for these mediocre results..Sure they can keep developing but at some stage after what I believe now is the biggest budget in F1 they have to come up with results for the money spent.At the moment they are'nt close to Ferrari,Mclaren or BMW/Sauber who are the front runners by the length of the street.Ultimately I believe Toyota will be as fast as those 3 teams at the end of the season but the question is how much faster are those 3 teams going to be by the end of it all.They reckon you find 1 second from the 1st race to the last.Personally I think Toyota are pushing S**T up hill and should get out of F1..

[Chickenman]

That's bullshit man.


Give up because the others are too good.



You must be a New Zealander.

You can't win all the time. It's the support you get when you're down that helps you to be great. If everyone gave up on everyone that wasn't in the first three of everything there wouldn't be a point in anyone even trying so there wouldn't be a first three any more and motorsport (and all other sport as we know it) would fade away to nothing and all the athletes would get depressed like JK... what kind of world is that?


Two words.


Kia Kaha

[Si]

That's bullshit man.
Give up because the others are too good.
You must be a New Zealander

Yep give up, go enter some other sport where you get better results and more good publicity.

Its not bullshit. Its driven by the "win on sunday sell on monday" philosophy that drives motorsport.

They arnt average Joe Blogs loosing, its Toyota loosing whats pretty much considered there marketing budget.

[matt dunn]

Sure they can keep developing but at some stage after what I believe now is the biggest budget in F1 they have to come up with results for the money spent.

They are (or will be next year) the biggest car manufacture in the world.

They can afford to spend that much year after year after year, as far as the foreseeable future goes at the moment.

[Mr Revhead]

not only the biggest, or nearly the biggest, but the most profitable....

[2jayzgte]

Well for money spent vs results attained it does'nt quite add up in my books.I read a F1 mag the other day saying there salary excluding drivers was 41 million a year again they have the biggest team operating budget so assuming there drivers will be earning 20 odd million a year if not more theres 80 million before they have turned a screw.

To me Toyota are just so far behind the top 3 and they don't look like cracking into that higher echelon anytime soon so if there still in the same situation in say 2 years time not making progress is it still worth pumping the millions into the F1 team that is not succeeding.

If you owned a race car and were not improving would you personally keep pumping money into it.I personally would not but others may think differently..

[Malcolm]

I love the way that half the people posting here think they're smarter than the people running Toyota/TTE. I don't really follow F1 that much because I find it boring to watch that stuff rather than be involved, but from my limited experience being in/running a team of people developing a car to compete with the best in your field, worldwide, my thoughts are:

- It takes a while to get to take a new group of people from nowhere to the top. Although you can learn a lot in a few years, you can learn even more from more years

- It doesn't matter how good you are, if the other guy is better. To be fair, I'd say the Toyota F1 team is probably an extremely exceptional group, professionally run, full of stupidly smart people, capable of doing great things - the problem is that some of the other teams are better

- I'm sure Toyota don't think they just pour money in and succeed. Nobody who makes decisions in companies of that size/quality is anywhere near that naive. However more money allows you to achieve more - better/more data acquisition, more people to work at a given problem, can afford to do more R&D, and such like

[rallyrulz]

They have developed the car in Cologne for 7yrs.
They have spent on average just over 1billion $ a year
Thats almost 8 billion spent so far
I estimate I own atleast 1 screw on that car for the $ i have spent on Toyota's

Toyota are really just a big fat corporate which are never dynamic, look at IBM, Microsoft or any large org, they simply suck at anything technical.

Toyota stole lots of aerodynamic data from ferrari (small, dynamic and very R&D happy) with some of the engineers they brought from them. Thats when they did good for atleast 2 races in Bahrain and stuff, since then they have lost gascone and only have medore drivers and really are only moving backwards for the past 2 yrs.

Go back to rallying dammit!