Potential Of 4AGE 20V

[vvega]

yeah my starlet will have a silvertop in it.
so its still a wee way off.
but it will have more than 145hp atw.

im also aware of at least one other silvertop in the build that should excede that figure.

so what your saying is you havent yet
theres lots of in theroeys with these cars
ewans with all the work done to it should have made 120-130 kw at the wheels
it didnt
he was reving to 10k as well

[Mr Revhead]

yet being the key word

what you are saying is.... you cant get more than about 160ish hp at the fly from a silvertop. i disagree.

any way time will tell.

[Lith]

yet being the key word

what you are saying is.... you cant get more than about 160ish hp at the fly from a silvertop. i disagree.

any way time will tell.

It'd be neat to see as has been said before. It will also be big news, as MANY have set out on the mission - yet over 100kw @ wheels on a 20v is still a bit of an event.

[Mr Revhead]

for interent racers maybe....
dont forget that ppl that do stuff and post on the net are but a small percentage of the ppl actually doing stuff.

my goal is about 170hp at the fly, and ill do it. its only about 30-40 up on stock. 99.9% of silvertop plots on the net are old motors running at less than original performance.

however its not something ill be doing this year, as first i have build the car for it to go in!

[RedMist]

Revhead, I think your going the right route for a good mid range engine. The flow work we completed on both silvertop and blacktop pointed to the silvertop as the engine to work. For much the same reason as the smallport is better than the bigport. Velocity.

Just as an indicitive I ran two silvertops one blacktop and the race big come smallport in the Bunderson.
Our silvertops produced 122 and 123 bhp at the wheels stock with a shitty exhaust and a Link LEM3
The Blacktop produced 132bhp with a considerably better tune and the LEM4.
The Race big come smallport produced 177.5bhp With the same LEM and a custom doggies danglers exhaust.

All were on dynopac chassis dynos.

When you compare the black and silvertop you have to consider the sum of the components. With all the changes and only a 9bhp increase on power there has to be some changes that acutally reduce peak power. I'm a great believer in squish and velocity. Both which are low in the blacktop. One blacktop feature I would certainly complete on the silvertop would be to increase the exhaust ports size dramatically. The silvertop's really choke on exhaust, hence Franklins (I think) or possibly CSL (I'm getting Altzhiemers) that use a bigger exhaust cam than intake cam to counter the exhaust problems. God knows why the didnt just port the bloody thing!!!

[vvega]

Revhead, I think your going the right route for a good mid range engine. The flow work we completed on both silvertop and blacktop pointed to the silvertop as the engine to work. For much the same reason as the smallport is better than the bigport. Velocity.

Just as an indicitive I ran two silvertops one blacktop and the race big come smallport in the Bunderson.
Our silvertops produced 122 and 123 bhp at the wheels stock with a shitty exhaust and a Link LEM3
The Blacktop produced 132bhp with a considerably better tune and the LEM4.
The Race big come smallport produced 177.5bhp With the same LEM and a custom doggies danglers exhaust.

All were on dynopac chassis dynos.

When you compare the black and silvertop you have to consider the sum of the components. With all the changes and only a 9bhp increase on power there has to be some changes that acutally reduce peak power. I'm a great believer in squish and velocity. Both which are low in the blacktop. One blacktop feature I would certainly complete on the silvertop would be to increase the exhaust ports size dramatically. The silvertop's really choke on exhaust, hence Franklins (I think) or possibly CSL (I'm getting Altzhiemers) that use a bigger exhaust cam than intake cam to counter the exhaust problems. God knows why the didnt just port the bloody thing!!!

funny in cc's the blacktop attualy has a smaller port so off teh bat tehy shoudl have more velocity
you talk of teh silvertop exhaust and opening it up...been there tried that theres only 2mm of wall thickness to teh inside of teh head and the water jacket
so no you cant do that
we played a fair bit with teh silvertop head and becaue ive done that personally i can tell you some things as fact
1 you cant open up teh ex port or they will crack though

noythings proven
one of teh other forum members here spent moonbeams on toda gear..and no cigar
ewan spent lots on workign his as well...full monty and while he has great power under the curve peak was not high

revhead your making outlandish cliam that are unfounded and you have no eveidence to back them up
if you were anyone else than a mod this threed would be locked and discared because of it

im not tring to be insulting in tring to keep it nice but hell

[Mr Revhead]

revhead your making outlandish cliam that are unfounded and you have no eveidence to back them up

as iv said, i disagree. as do many others.
i dont call 170hp an out landish claim.
i beleive i can. and if doesnt happen, so be it.

if we all gave up because ppl said it cant be done.....

[ROBODISCO_20v]

This is my black top with minor mods. Intake, Exhaust & maybe mild cams (old owner said he installed some but we couldn't see any brand name on them) I installed an Apexi SAFCII after this as you can see the fuel was all over the show. Gained an extra 6kW at the top end & about 4 right thru the rev range. Would equate to around 165hp at the flywheel. So 170 would be easy to get with a full programmable ECU. Add some bigger cams & you'll be well over 170. Imec in Japan got 190hp out of a BZ-G without much hassle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrvezGrq-Q4

[Logan]

Nice some dyno plots. Just keep in mind that absolute dyno values must be taken with a grain of salt, and more to be taken is the changes from doing stuff..

[vvega]

This is my black top with minor mods. Intake, Exhaust & maybe mild cams (old owner said he installed some but we couldn't see any brand name on them) I installed an Apexi SAFCII after this as you can see the fuel was all over the show. Gained an extra 6kW at the top end & about 4 right thru the rev range. Would equate to around 165hp at the flywheel. So 170 would be easy to get with a full programmable ECU. Add some bigger cams & you'll be well over 170. Imec in Japan got 190hp out of a BZ-G without much hassle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrvezGrq-Q4

nice
trouble is its a blacktop.......they will do this almost stock
silvertops have trouble doing this modded
lastly 101 kw = 135 hp so your saying you lose 35 hp though a FWD box ?? so your saying 25% loss
thats a hell of a loss

[Lith]

Yeah I was thinking that, I remember Bansai (High Octane project CRX) did a base run on TP's dyno and ran like 106kw @ wheels or so. They are rated at 160hp @ engine stock and it would have been thrashed etc so you'd think it could have lost a couple.

[vvega]

think of it this way
that energy has to go somewere
id imagine it would all go into heat
sp soemone work it out
35hp converted to heat = how many kw of heat produced

if i remeber back from the days when i atually cared 6# hp of loss would in thery fuse teh gears themselves togeather*

v

*may be a outlandious claim

[ROBODISCO_20v]

quote]
nice
trouble is its a blacktop.......they will do this almost stock
silvertops have trouble doing this modded
lastly 101 kw = 135 hp so your saying you lose 35 hp though a FWD box ?? so your saying 25% loss
thats a hell of a loss

I was being conservative with my estimation. But 165 - 25% on my calculator = 123.75. I was working on about 18% loss.

[slighty_sykotic]

That amount of heat would melt your gearbox.

And it can only go to heat or sound really. How loud is your gearbox?

[Mr Revhead]

the way i look at it.....

you can grap an input shaft and turn it with ya hand.


does your hand make 25kw? coz if it does theres some hookers that would love to know your technique.....

[vvega]

look at it like this
as the shaft rpm increases it takes more hp to "free run" teh shaft though drag of bearigns and gear meshing

how much hp do you think it woudl require to run a gearbox up to a input shaft speed of 8 grand with no load on it......
i woudl think you couls do it with no more than 7hp at the most

fwd gearbox's are inherently a low loss gearbox the with the least number of direction changes in teh powertrain
id expect heavier boxes like e series and holangers with larger sharfs and bearings would exibit more drag but a c56 is in comparason very lightwieght

remeber a dyno calculates figures from load...so any load applied to a free running drivechain is calculated .......
teh only thing no calculated is teh freee running

[mister2]

Hey! Actual numbers on transmission loss! http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/trans.htm

Jesus, Logan just post your setup and dyno plots

Nick

[Logan]

Hey! Actual numbers on transmission loss! http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/trans.htm

Jesus, Logan just post your setup and dyno plots

Nick

Hmm.... I could post it up, after all it did make 300hp, but I lost the plot................and the dyno sheet to for that matter....

[Tukumi]

Haha good call Logan

Put yours up Logan, shows what ya can do if ya get the right person to put it all together.

[AceSniper]

only way to go is bolt this TRD special engine in
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motor ... 90.htm?p=9