ECU Tuning...

[matt dunn]

Whats the difference, imagine i could go to torque performance and say I need a map for this car, this motor that runs this boost and kw etc and they magically were able to print out the figure and sell me it for $500 * lets say * so i could take it home and insert it on my car and then keep that file to do with as i wish.

That's what we did for the focus originally for the motec in it from a company in australia that had spent well over 40 hours of R&D dyno tuning the program,
and it came with no password attached.


However,
In your case,
My opinion would be,

I would say the ownership of the map would belong to the person who paid for the tune,
Which as you bough it s/h and have not paid for the tune,
i'd say you do not own the map.


BUT

If you bought the ecu to run your car with the program in it as a base map,
and the people you bought it off knew that,
then it it not fit for the purpose they sodl it to you for as it cannot be adjusted, and therefore under consumer guarantee's act,
is not fit for the purpose they sold it to you for,
so could try that line, or Live with the fact that you'll have to do a full tune,
or be entitled to return it for a refund.

[barryogen]

its anyones unless it is copyrighted as far as i know

under NZ copyright law any work is copyrighted unless it specifically states that it is not... meaning that the copyright to this post belongs to me even if I don't mention it.

If you really wanted to be picky, you could probably have me convicted under NZ copyright law for quoting you above there... although I think that direct quotes are fine.

Now how a MAP in an ECU relates to a "work" that can be copyrighted(copyrighten?) I'm not sure.

But I would have thought that a "work" that was done for a paying customer would belong to the customer, although if we really want to be picky, they could argue that it was software, and the source is not available without adhearing to x y and z.

It sounds like they are being arseholes... and should be avoided in future.

Just to touch on the metalica example... in theory, when the album gets resold, you are meant to pass the money onto the artist... it's a nasty grey area that I delve into from time to time and leave screaming.

[pjay]

my gosh... the pc gets worse as i learn more

[Adydas]

So it sounds like who ever had the ECU tuned owns the map, and unless that person transfered that "IP" along to you as part of the sale, you have no right to use it.

Fair enough the tuner not giving the pin out, after all, What if it was from say a race car with $$$ involved.

Either get the previous owner of the ECU to get the pin, or get it wiped.

My issue is they havent locked me out of the map, they have locked me out of MY ECU. The ECU is my property so what right do they have to stop me going in to that.. if they want to stop me copying the map thats a differnt issue but i dont feel its fair they can stop me getting into my own property.

A house painter do0nt change the locks when he leaves, that paint jobs original...


If i want to go in and chance launch control as somone said, or change the rpm limiter to 3000rpm for WOF thats my right and property to do so there map is in no part the issue.

[Adydas]

Matt Dunn,

Agree with what you say, but what if i said to the person i bought it from that id pay $250 extra for there map.. Is it theres to sell or does it allways belong to the tuner meaning they cant accept money for it.

im not intrested in the old map for the v8, but it raises the question i have..

IF i did want it, COULD i legally buy it from the person that paid for the tune from the tuner? or would they be breaching rules by accepting money for it.

Should it be considerd part of the sale i bought the ecu as is where is, and it was and is loaded with a V8 map, So does that make it mine in the purhcase.

As i said above the issue isnt 100% related in my opinion to the map my issue is that IF my tuner passwords the ecu stopping me getting in and doing stuff i should be entitled to such as lower the RPM limit when i go for a WOF to avoid the mech doing the wof thrashing it.

Its my ecu i own it, so what right does somone thats put some data onto it for me with exchange of money have to put a password on it stopping me ever open the ecu and use functions i should be entitled to do so with..

[sergei]

I would like to point out when you getting your car tuned you are paying for service, and not for the MAP, technically the map is part of your property and belongs to you. Builders analogy - having a builder to build you a deck, even if he designed it he can't keep you from looking what is inside or reselling it.

[Adydas]

I agree, and i guess thats what has me confused.. I dont understand how with that basis whats happening can happen..

It hasnt happened to me, but the previous owner clearly was locked out based on the attitutude of the tuner emplying to remove the pin they would remove the map.

[mister2]

Yeah tricky one. We've had this from time to time, when cars have come in password locked.

One other angle to consider is liability on the part of the tuner - quite often we'd *prefer* to lock the map to save the customer from themselves (!); a classic one is them upping the boost limit 'cos it keeps hitting the limiter au', rather than addressing the problem. You would not believe how many people do this.

Nick

[atmosports]

I'd agree with Nick above, in that the odd time I've locked an ecu it's generally to stop some $&#$% who thinks he knows what he is doing & doesn't have any clue from playing, or in the case of say a one make race series to stop someone else from stealing a map that our customer has paid good money for. In the later case though it's usually been a customer's request & they have known the password/pin anyway so it's not really an issue. If we've locked an ecu & get a phone request, then generally in 99% of the4 cases if the customer asks & brings the car back we will unlock it for them, but we don't usually give out unlock information over the phone unless it's to another tuner that we trust/or the car is down the other end of the country or something.

Most Ecu's have some sort of failsafe so that even if they are locked etc you can still use them somehow, most though you end up losing the map in the ecu unless you know the password/pin. Unfortunately as far as I'm aware with a Motec unless you have the password/pin you'll be losing the map if you wish to access it, as the odd time we've had a similar problem & it's gone back to our dealer it's come back exactly the same as a new ecu would, no maps/config etc.

[ChaosAD]

Its the same as movies isnt it?
You can pay to download a movie which has DRM.
I dont think you can copy them, and you can only watch it so many times then you get locked out of it.
You dont own the movie, just the right to watch it.

Similar to not owning the map, just the right to use it I guess

[Adydas]

The only reason id ever want to "get in" would be for the above described reason.. If i take my car for a WOF during the day leaving it to be collected later.. a professional clean what ever where the car will be in un trustworthy hands i like knowing i could have the power to limit the miss treatment of my car to my own hands. Or at least those i can trust.

I would never dream of editing any part of the map ( hell if im paying a bucket load of money for a tune i take it that that tunes perfect.. ) anyone dum enuf to monkey with a map for any reason is so stupid its not funny.

You cant just " wind the boost up " on a car specifiicaly run in to xzy pressurem surely your joking to say some have tryed this...

[Adydas]

Its the same as movies isnt it?
You can pay to download a movie which has DRM.
I dont think you can copy them, and you can only watch it so many times then you get locked out of it.
You dont own the movie, just the right to watch it.

Similar to not owning the map, just the right to use it I guess

My issue is, i dont belive any tuner / tuned car owners relation ship has ever stepped into anything more than : heres my keys make it go ", " ok all done, $800 thanks heres youe keys back "

If you walk into somthing with the expectation via a contract etc that zyxydsf is going to be the deal then fine, my issue is...

In a case where its not stated who owns it and can access it, whats the default..

Also dont answer my above question perhaps someone from NZEFI could answer , its my ecu so what right would you have to assume you can put your password on it..

Its not like i come to your house use your computer to make an "original" mspaint drawing and then set a bios password....

Dont get me wrong, i dont care.. im curious and feel its a good answer to know so if somones in this situation and feels against i what leg to hop onto..

[johntramp]

its good to be able to set rev limit to 4000 rpm or so when i need to leave my car with someone else.

[mister2]

You cant just " wind the boost up " on a car specifiicaly run in to xzy pressurem surely your joking to say some have tryed this...

Ha ha. People do it more often than you would realise, even if you specifically warn them off it.

Generally we don't lock an ECU unless there's a really good reason though, that would be the default.

Cheers

Nick