Gull's new 98 Octane Biofuel

[Grrrrrrr!]

I will through another broom stick into wheel spokes:
http://www.intota.com/docs/ethanol-pollution.asp

By now you may have heard of the economic questions regarding using corn for ethanol production, but less attention has been paid to the environmental impact of using ethanol as an alternative to gasoline. Is ethanol more of a pollutant than gasoline? Surprisingly, the science says yes.

According to our Expert, who holds a PhD in Biochemical Engineering, a Master’s degree in Chemical Engineering, and has over 40 years experience performing biotechnology, bioengineering, and bioprocess research, both ethanol and gasoline deliver the same amount of carbon dioxide (CO2) into the atmosphere per gallon consumed. However, when compared on a per mile driven basis, burning ethanol actually produces 54% more CO2 as global warming pollutant than gasoline due to the fact that ethanol has lower fuel efficiency.

For the science buffs out there, the energy production produced by burning materials is proportional to the molecules of oxygen used. Here are the chemical formulas for the energy produced by burning octane via gasoline and by burning glucose via ethanol.

Octane (n-dodecane): C12H26 + 18.5 O2 → 12 CO2 + 13 H2O
18.5 x energy units.

Glucose via ethanol:
Glucose 2 C6H12O6 → 4 CO2 + 4 C2H5OH
Ethanol:4 C2H5OH + 12 O2 → 8 CO2 + 12 H2O
2 C6H12O6 + 12 O2 → 12 CO2 + 12 H2O
12.0 x energy units

But the difference is that the next years crop of corn (or whatever feedstock you use to make the ethanol) soaks it all back out of the atmosphere as it grows so it all goes round in a big loop.
feedstock -> ethanol -> combustion -> CO2 -> next crop of feedstock -> ethanol etc..

where as petrol is suck it out of the ground, burn it, leave it in the atmosphere.

Only way to stop dirtying up the atmosphere is to stop burning petrol, but as the last few years of petrol price increases have shown we just ain't gonna do that.

[Titties]

Ok I just read all 4 pages, and there isn't many people that have actually tried and tested this in their own rides.
Have we got any new info for this Fuel?

[sergei]

But the difference is that the next years crop of corn (or whatever feedstock you use to make the ethanol) soaks it all back out of the atmosphere as it grows so it all goes round in a big loop.
feedstock -> ethanol -> combustion -> CO2 -> next crop of feedstock -> ethanol etc..

where as petrol is suck it out of the ground, burn it, leave it in the atmosphere.

Only way to stop dirtying up the atmosphere is to stop burning petrol, but as the last few years of petrol price increases have shown we just ain't gonna do that.

CO2 is a weak green house gas, H2O vapour is really strong green house gas , and is at higher concentration in atmosphere, maybe we should install massive dehumidifiers?
Using Ethanol as replacement for gas in counter productive, due to farming that produces Ethanol puts out a lot more CO2 than crop absorbs.

[barryogen]

I was in auckland a few weeks back in a rental vitz(echo) RS.

On the biofuel it seemed to go a bit better than on the 91 that it had in it the week prior, although not sure if that was because it was "biofuel" or just the extra octane.

So yeah, completely un-scientific, and pretty useless, but it seemed better than shell 91 :)

[sergei]

I was in auckland a few weeks back in a rental vitz(echo) RS.

On the biofuel it seemed to go a bit better than on the 91 that it had in it the week prior, although not sure if that was because it was "biofuel" or just the extra octane.

So yeah, completely un-scientific, and pretty useless, but it seemed better than shell 91

It is probably because of extra octane .

[Grrrrrrr!]

CO2 is a weak green house gas, H2O vapour is really strong green house gas , and is at higher concentration in atmosphere, maybe we should install massive dehumidifiers?
Using Ethanol as replacement for gas in counter productive, due to farming that produces Ethanol puts out a lot more CO2 than crop absorbs.

Depends on the crop, and the methods used to grow it.

As for the H20 thing, you might be right about it being a stronger greenhouse contributor, but it's been there all along, not much we can do to stop it unless you know how to stop water from evaporating? I don't think a big lid on all the oceans is all that practical

[sergei]

exactly my point, we as humans are too powerless to do anything about global warming, it was there long before us. The fact that we came out of ice age, is forgotten by media, and if you remember they have this "global cooling" problem in '70s.

[drftnmaz]

i've been using this in my 5k carb turbo and it loves it... no fuel leaks as yet or anything like that... The smell is AWSOME aswell (tho not quite as good as AV) and i've had a few ppl comment about the smell and they didnt even know i was running it. I'm not going back to standard gas

[Jdawg]

Progress is good.
The ST202 Celica I am currently punting around in produces more power and is more fuel efficient than the old Valiant sloper I learnt to drive in.
No doubt Bio-fuels will become better and cheaper and more effeicient ways to grow the base fuel will be developed.

[Grrrrrrr!]

exactly my point, we as humans are too powerless to do anything about global warming, it was there long before us. The fact that we came out of ice age, is forgotten by media, and if you remember they have this "global cooling" problem in '70s.

It was there, but never at the rate that we have seen in the last 50 years. Humans are screwing up this planet, and since the nearest planet we could live on is a bloody long way away i suggest we do what we can to keep this one alive a bit longer.

Besides, sooner or later the oil will run out so why not start looking for practical alternatives now. The internal combustion engine is an in-efficent POS. All we need is somebody to invent a decent battery that doesn't weigh a freaking ton and cost too much to manufacture.

Do you enjoy the petrol prices rising every time a Sheik gets a cold?

[barryogen]

i've been using this in my 5k carb turbo and it loves it... no fuel leaks as yet or anything like that... The smell is AWSOME aswell (tho not quite as good as AV) and i've had a few ppl comment about the smell and they didnt even know i was running it. I'm not going back to standard gas 8)

hmmm, I'm pretty sure they said carb'd engine and ethanol blends were "bad mmm kay", can't remember why though, I'm sure someone geekier can explain

Do you enjoy the petrol prices rising every time a Sheik gets a cold? :)

A lot of the rising cost of oil is because of the weakening US dollar... If we purchased using money from a country that isn't nearing bankruptcy then it wouldn't cost as much.

[Voodoo]

using Ethanol as replacement for gas in counter productive, due to farming that produces Ethanol puts out a lot more CO2 than crop absorbs.

well i guess its more productive than just pumping oil out of the ground , oil rigs dont absorb any CO2 Ethanol is also a renewable resource which at least a jump up from oil based fuels

whether its actually good for cars , well thats another story , but it seems popular enough here in QLD, mind u, u just need to see all the sugar cane farms around lol

[sergei]

There are a few issues with current way of designing cars:
Transmission losses - why the hell they will not go train way - eliminate mechanical transmission completely: have a motor powering the generator which in turn spins multiphase electrical motors. This will have following advantages: there will not be need for motor to work well in wide range of RPMs - it even could stay say at 3000rpm all the time where it could be tuned properly. Another advantage is ability to get rid of piston engine entirely - have a gas turbine (small one) powering generator, the good gas turbine is very close to 50% efficiency, and can run on anything that is liquid and burns under pressure (diesel, petrol, kerosene, styrol etc.). If piston engines are used stuff like vtec/vvt etc will be useless, the engine itself could be a very narrow band but efficient (something like turbo diesel). The electric motors in the wheels will allow perfect traction control, braking, proper "differential" action, and regenerative braking (if battery/supercapacitor present). Technically there is no need for gearbox differential or other mechanical device, so no losses from there (losses on FWD start from about 10%, while electrical losses are about 1%, with good electrical motor being efficient in 98% range).
If the cars would be built like this the efficiency gain will in fact be a lot more then you would ever get from 5% ethanol - teach people how to drive or build better public transport and gains with current petrol scheme would be a lot higher than 5% ethanol will ever get.
Se the problem is that we consumer never know how much extra pollutants the ethanol industry will create (fertilizers is one of them).
From my point of view (especially when the Helen was in the picture when they announced new bio fuel - again 5% is a joke) this is done for image purpose more than to save earth, same with new import laws (which will actually increase pollution due to every one will be driving on really old shitter because they cannot afford new car).

[Grrrrrrr!]

Gas turbines aren't responsive enough for automotive use.. they take to long to get started, don't like sudden changes of load, and require too much maintainance.
Better leave them in the power station where they can be run at full load and connected to combined cycle setups to get max efficiency out of them.
Then transmit the power to the car via a battery pack.
Totally agree with the ditch the mechanical transmission idea. Mount the electric motors inboard and use short driveshafts to get the unsprung weight down so they handle better. The only hurdle to doing this is the damn battery packs aren't good enough yet.

[Mr Revhead]

you guys should be burned at the stake

[snwtoy]

So according to point 6, I cannot run a GTT on this stuff?

[Grrrrrrr!]

Why? dont you like the idea of full torque at zero rpm?
Electric motors are freaking grunty, and with the way solar panels are progressing they could end up being free to run

[Mr Revhead]

im well aware of that.

400 years ago the ppl that burnt other ppl at the stake are now considered incorrect.....

[drftnmaz]

i've been using this in my 5k carb turbo and it loves it... no fuel leaks as yet or anything like that... The smell is AWSOME aswell (tho not quite as good as AV) and i've had a few ppl comment about the smell and they didnt even know i was running it. I'm not going back to standard gas

hmmm, I'm pretty sure they said carb'd engine and ethanol blends were "bad mmm kay", can't remember why though, I'm sure someone geekier can explain

Bah... i'm pretty sure its to do with the seals/hoses getting eaten away and if my seals can hold upto av gas and 17psi then 10% ethonol an't gona do squat... and the other reason for not using on carbs is if you have long runners and the fuel is gonna drop out and puddle.

and btw: everyone told me carbs+turbos dont mix but yet i have made afew systems that work quite well and suprised alot of ppl (still not as good a injection, but good for $50 run-arounds)

i'm not one to lisen to other ppl's guesses i'm more the type to figure it out my own way (usally the costly/worst way)

[sergei]

Gas turbines aren't responsive enough for automotive use.. they take to long to get started, don't like sudden changes of load, and require too much maintainance.

Gas turbine combined with electric transmission does not require to have fast response - it could just stay at same RPMs all the time.
As for maintenance - some of the helicopters in Russia are over 50yo running on the original engine and I can tell you how good Russians at maintaining stuff (they are good at maintaining only 1 thing - blood alcohol level).