New Demerit + Fine System & Radar Dectectors Banned

[BlakJak]

It'll come about as a routine upgrade.. imagine the marketing lines 'now with new feature to allow additional 'evasive' units to be detected!' they'll definately come.

And it wouldnt suprise me, if the 'boy racer' community cottons on to these particular units that haver moved their IF, that the Police are all-but expected to get new gear to pick them up in response.

[barryogen]

if they keep making them evade the latest and greatest detection methods, then they'll just ban the importation of them... that way if you order one online from overseas, on delivery, you're arrested.

pretty simple really.

[rmf55]

hey guys
just noticed this post- i am a commercial lawyer at nzs no1 ranked law firm (tho i won't mention who that is lol) and am following this new law with interest. We are lobbying against it and I spoke to the ministry of transport a week or so ago. Not even anyone in the legal community really knows anything about it, but the good news I can report is that while the demerit points measures are likely to get through, the radar detector ban is unlikely to actually happen.

the key thing to realise is the measures discussed are not going to be introduced in one package- they were only put out into the media this way for convenience purposes. I won't bore you with the legal details, but suffice to say that each of the individual measures has to be dealt with in a different way: a ban on radar detectors for example is an entirely new offence and therefore requires different procedural steps than altering the penalty of an existing offence. The other thing to know is that there won’t therefore be a bill before parliament as such- instead there will be a series of smaller steps by the ministry of transport, passed into law in the same manner as for example the powers of local councils.

To cut to the chase, my personal perspective of them is that it is simply pre-election posturing because bagging boy racers is seen as a sure fire way of getting votes. Seeing the latest date an election can be this year is October or November, any law would also have to be passed by then. I expect at least the radar ban bit will become too difficult and will get lost as more important things like campaigning become important. There is also no certain timeline for implementation- its not even at the formation of policy stage yet.

You can track the progress, if any of the laws under the ministry of transport website- look up “new rules and regulations’. Note also that the ministry has an obligation under the Land Transport Act to consult with the public before passing new rules, so you will hear more before anything actually happens. In the meantime, I’m happy to answer any more questions anyone has. The thing to remember is the reason we don’t know much is because its primarily all talk at this stage- there isn’t much to know!

Thanks,

A happy st205 owner who happens to have a convenient occupation…

[pidge]

So, not IANAL but IAAL and IANYL?

[rolla_fxgt]

hey guys
just noticed this post- i am a commercial lawyer at nzs no1 ranked law firm (tho i won't mention who that is lol) and am following this new law with interest. We are lobbying against it and I spoke to the ministry of transport a week or so ago. Not even anyone in the legal community really knows anything about it, but the good news I can report is that while the demerit points measures are likely to get through, the radar detector ban is unlikely to actually happen.

the key thing to realise is the measures discussed are not going to be introduced in one package- they were only put out into the media this way for convenience purposes. I won't bore you with the legal details, but suffice to say that each of the individual measures has to be dealt with in a different way: a ban on radar detectors for example is an entirely new offence and therefore requires different procedural steps than altering the penalty of an existing offence. The other thing to know is that there won’t therefore be a bill before parliament as such- instead there will be a series of smaller steps by the ministry of transport, passed into law in the same manner as for example the powers of local councils.

To cut to the chase, my personal perspective of them is that it is simply pre-election posturing because bagging boy racers is seen as a sure fire way of getting votes. Seeing the latest date an election can be this year is October or November, any law would also have to be passed by then. I expect at least the radar ban bit will become too difficult and will get lost as more important things like campaigning become important. There is also no certain timeline for implementation- its not even at the formation of policy stage yet.

You can track the progress, if any of the laws under the ministry of transport website- look up “new rules and regulations’. Note also that the ministry has an obligation under the Land Transport Act to consult with the public before passing new rules, so you will hear more before anything actually happens. In the meantime, I’m happy to answer any more questions anyone has. The thing to remember is the reason we don’t know much is because its primarily all talk at this stage- there isn’t much to know!

Thanks,

A happy st205 owner who happens to have a convenient occupation…

I thought that technically the anti radar part of it could be done through an order in council, since the powers to make small law changes like this have been delagated to the minister of transport ? is that the way you understand it or is it more likely to come from the ministry itself? its easy to forget how far down the line some of these lower order law making powers get devolved to

[rmf55]

"I thought that technically the anti radar part of it could be done through an order in council, since the powers to make small law changes like this have been delagated to the minister of transport ? is that the way you understand it or is it more likely to come from the ministry itself? its easy to forget how far down the line some of these lower order law making powers get devolved to."

yeah sorry i was slightly oversimplifying there- it definately could be done that way, and also by a bill in parliament, if the government chose to. The Ministry said however that it is unlikely it would happen that way- for a start Parliament and orders in council tend to be restricted to larger things.

Actually to be honest I don't think it could be done through an order in council as that would undermine the requirements they have to consult under the Land Transport Act. This government doesn't tend to care too much about constitutional requirements though! That actually will be the basis of some of our submissions.

Assuming the radar section is acted upon by the Ministry, it does have to be as a rule and not a regulation though, seeing, as I said before that it is creating a new obligation. One of the other issues that we will be making our submissions on is the fact that by banning radar detectors the government is effectively confiscating the private property of its citizens. I really hope that this club and others will make their voice heard- if enough people make it clear this issue will make them vote for national, then it really will disappear. This is a democracy after all- as little as Helen Clark likes that!

[Mr Revhead]

but..... its a good idea.... i have no problem with the banning of radar detectors

i think you will have a hard time fighting the banning of something that aids in getting away with a crime.

or are you going the typical PC bs nz way and trying to claim that the government is evil and are only doing it because they are a bunch of c**ts with no purpose in life other than making our lives worse?

seems to me a large law firm is just out to make a name and some $$$ for itself rather than the crusade for the masses you make it out to be.

if im mistaken, i apologise.... but would appreciate it if you could clarify how i am....


btw there is no way in HELL i will vote for labour this election.

[pidge]

Just some random thoughts:

They'd better ban radio scanners and the plain-old eyeball then as well...
Oh, and flashing your headlights to warn people about the speed camera / parked patrol car they'll pass in the next minute.

Anything else to add to the list of things to ban?

[Mr Revhead]

if ppl use there eyeballs more... it would be a good thing
so take away the electronic cheats, and make em look more!

scanners.... i do wonder why the cops havnt gone encrypted though.
prob more hassle than its worth

[flat_0ut]

Oh, and flashing your headlights to warn people about the speed camera / parked patrol car they'll pass in the next minute.

Anything else to add to the list of things to ban?

Too late, that's already banned

[pidge]

if ppl use there eyeballs more... it would be a good thing
so take away the electronic cheats, and make em look more!

Good point...

scanners.... i do wonder why the cops havnt gone encrypted though.
prob more hassle than its worth

If they bother to go encrypted, they'd be best go to the Spread Spectrum gear, otherwise people would still be able to use their scanners to know there was a patrol car "nearby" (for a possibly large values of "nearby" admittedly)

[method]

Damn and i just sold my V1!

Got good coin though, same as what i got it for nearly two years ago.

Radar detectors are great on the open road, even if you're only driving 100. Because when it picks up a cop it forces you to check your speed. You may be coming down a hill after 3 hrs of driving, slightly fatigued and gone over 110 without realising. With the new demerit system you wouldnt last long.

Or when you want to overtake a car. I remember overtaking a Btrain on the straights in matamata. Was comming up to around 120kph while passing and just as i was up to the tractor unit the V1 alerted me of a fixed camera. So i slowed down, waited to pass the camera the continued with my overtaking.

Its more of a piece of mind thing than "yeah bo now i cn drive 120 on da motorwazy yo". Which a lot of middle aged men in holdens tend to do.

[BlakJak]

if ppl use there eyeballs more... it would be a good thing
so take away the electronic cheats, and make em look more!

Good point...

scanners.... i do wonder why the cops havnt gone encrypted though.
prob more hassle than its worth

If they bother to go encrypted, they'd be best go to the Spread Spectrum gear, otherwise people would still be able to use their scanners to know there was a patrol car "nearby" (for a possibly large values of "nearby" admittedly)

Pidge,
Theyre not worried about you knowing there's a car in the vicinity - they dont want what they say, heard.

Some sources

http://www.scanningusa.com/trunked_info/foreign.html

The New Zealand Police are to operate a TETRA digital trunking radio system. Auckland will be the first city to operate the system. It will coincide with the 1999 APEC conference being held there. Then slowly the other major cities will slowly convert over to TETRA digital trunking. Frequency band will be the new Emergency Services C-band between 380-383MHz & 390-393MHz

http://www.police.govt.nz/news/release/3186.html

http://www.taitworld.com/main/index.cfm ... P25-Radios


Digital is already coming in terms of the NZ Police. Scanners will be significantly less of an issue for them once Digital is commonplace.
I've actually seen some of the Engineering/Trial P25 kit, and i've heard the analogue version of their digital signal... trust me the scanner will be hopeless.

(Even a top-end DF kit won't easily let you tell where a transmitter is, and the average mobile unit wont transmit for long enough to make it in any way easy for you to find them using DF either.)

[pidge]

I'm wasn't thinking about DF, just the "oh, there's a signal source transmitting that I can receive, therefore there is a possibly a patrol car 'nearby'".

[BlakJak]

Where do you stop tho? it'll either be going off constantly or be of almost no use. Radio transmissions aren't directional, and what's the bet that Police RT's are generally running sufficient watts that your receiver has to be desensed to buggery.... at what point does it become useful?

Radars are direction, so Radar Detectors have some actual value in that regard.

[Adydas]

I must admit unless im very lost i cant see how a scanner would help you at all in locating a car.. I was listening to my new scanner last night and heard calls all over auckland ( from new lynn ) the only reason i had any idea one guy was in manurewa was beacuse i reconised a road name, If i were driving about anywhere in akld listning to that would be useless im sure..

As BJ has stated a radar will tell you where the signals coming from.. a scanner just lets you hear somoneone, somewhere asking somthing about somone else.. Its only even slightly helpfull if they happen to mention a location and even then saying "manurewa" is hardly helpfull if i were drving around manurewa on a friday night i would allready assume somewhere in the area theres a police car, unless they started driving along annoucing there movments like air traffic..

"officer plod turning base for roadway skelton ave "

[barryogen]

Oh, and flashing your headlights to warn people about the speed camera / parked patrol car they'll pass in the next minute.

This is already illegal... however, I have been pulled over for it, ticket, and took it to court and successfully argued that I was simply warning the on coming motorists of an emergency vehicle in the vicinity.

[BlakJak]

Interested in where in the law it says that doing so is illegal?

[barryogen]

Radio transmissions aren't directional

true, but neither is wifi, but with enough signals and a gps unit, you can map where signals are coming from... I'm pretty sure if could be adapted for digital radio signal, although somewhat limited in use, and probably prohibitively expensive.

[BlakJak]

Radio transmissions aren't directional

true, but neither is wifi, but with enough signals and a gps unit, you can map where signals are coming from... I'm pretty sure if could be adapted for digital radio signal, although somewhat limited in use, and probably prohibitively expensive.

Mapping the geographic location of any radio signal requires you to measure a direction from which it is 'strongest' from at least two seperate locations that then allow you to triangulate to a specific point. (3 is better. 2 lets you use Trig formulae but wont be as accurate.)

An 802.11 transmitter is usually stationary. A police car, somewhat less so.