New exhaust noise consultation open

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Postby groupagt4 » Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:41 pm

Py7h0n wrote:
holden_fan2005 wrote:It cant be all that bad.

It just means there is more of a challenge to make a performance car a quite performance car, something I think is bloody brilliant.

My 2c


People like you have cost me $1000 of custom fabrication to get my 3.5" exhaust under 95dBA, without killing performance. I have no time for these new laws and my submission is all done.

People who actually care about motorsport should make submissions as quickly as possible to see if we can get this draft changed. I cannot understand why the people in power can't tackle the problem (under 21's with modified cars).

I would love to see a restriction like the P plate in Australia, limiting drivers under a certain age and driving experience to low powered and unmodified cars!


well thats not really fair im only 19. what about guys like me that are actually sensible and not a try hard. personally i dont mind the law against loud exhaust, its the bov thing that pisses me off
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Postby Cahuna » Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:58 pm

Py7h0n wrote:People like you have cost me $1000 of custom fabrication to get my 3.5" exhaust under 95dBA, without killing performance. I have no time for these new laws and my submission is all done.

People who actually care about motorsport should make submissions as quickly as possible to see if we can get this draft changed. I cannot understand why the people in power can't tackle the problem (under 21's with modified cars).

I would love to see a restriction like the P plate in Australia, limiting drivers under a certain age and driving experience to low powered and unmodified cars!


As a matter of fact, as a motorsport competitor I don't have a problem with requiring my car to be under 95db. 95db is the noise limit at most (if not all) race circuits in NZ. When we run club events (Hillclimbs, Rallysprints) we reserve the right to exclude cars with "excessive noise" in the interests of keeping residents happy - and we have done so on more than one occasion. With Motorkhanas we design tests to keep noise down if houses are nearby. Targa Rally requires all competitors with turbo vehicles to disable the anti-lag for the duration of the event to keep noise down. Rally of the Far North last year had a stage that required anti-lag be turned off to keep the residents happy. If your car exceeds 95db at any revs you probably won't be welcome at any motorsport event.

If you have a loud vehicle, deal with it. I put a quieter exhaust on the Corolla because the old one was too loud, even though it passed WOF tests. It is part of the cost of being a car enthusiast, if you can't afford to do it properly then save until you can. At least with these new rules you can have an objective test performed on your car and get a letter stating that it passed the test which WOF and Police officers will take heed of. That in itself is a huge step forward over the current system of subjective tests (which was my sole gripe about the current laws).

I've sat behind cars that fall within the 95db limit on the start line at events and haven't been able to feel my own car idling, let alone hear it! Why you would want a vehicle that was louder than 95db I cannot comprehend, to me it is the height of self-centredness (I want to have a loud vehicle and stuff everyone who it peeves off... it is a free country and I should be able to do what I darned well like).

This law has nothing to do with getting munters with no skills to ditch their Skylines, Cefiros and Laurels (which would be addressed by decent licencing laws and power-weight-based rules for cars they can drive) and everything to do with making life a little nicer for the 99% of the population who don't give two hoots about modified cars and don't want to deal with the noise. Learner driver laws is a totally different subject. Don't confuse the two.

Also, re WOF testers failing cars that test out under the limit... it is not worth their while to stick their neck out with any vehicle that may not meet the rules. If they pass a car which is then brought to the attention of cops then it is them who face the music and risk losing their ticket. Can you really blame them for asking for an objective test if they risk losing their ticket (and possibly their ability to do their job)?
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Postby mr_monkey » Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:26 pm

I havent read all of this.. intact i cant remember if ive already posted.. HOWEVER.

People need to stop winging and just get over it. I was a winger too till i realised that its possible to just get off my ass and fix the problem (in less than an hour)

My latest car failed its wof on the DB meter because of its 3" exhaust from tip to relatively large turbo and tube stainless manifold.

It cost me $180 to have the muffler shop weld in a coby resonator (the muffler kinda with perforated tube and filled outer chamber.) which quietened it down loads.

It was a cheap fix and I don't imagine its going to affect performance anything noticeable.

Now that the cars quieter i find it more enjoyable to drive too.

Oh and TBH the majority of loud japanese cars sound like total shit.... with the exception of just a few horny sounding vehicles with huge cams etc (you know who you are).

save us all.
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Postby MAGN1T » Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:41 pm

So when is 95dB not 95dB??

Isn't the motorsport limit a driveby level whereas the WOF limit done at only a metre or so?

Anyway, a quiet exhaust is all good, most young guys will figure it out when they get older and realise they've lost some of their hearing .Noisy car's aren't the most powerful.

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Postby touge rolla » Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:52 pm

^I don't think many people are saying they have a problem with the 95dBa limit. Infact I'd say most agree with you on excessively noisy cars. It's the "louder than standard", recieving a 90dBa limit for failing, and how it is open to a police officers personal opinion/mood parts that people have a problem with.
Oh and the BOV part, could someone summarise that and post it here for me? Haven't got Acrobat and all attempts to download it have failed on this computer. Thanks
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Postby Mr.Phreak » Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:25 am

Draft Vehicle Equipment Noise Amendment wrote:2.2 Blow-off valves
The Rule is amended by inserting the following clause:
“2.10 Blow-off valves
“(1) A blow-off valve must be either silenced effectively or not
vented directly to the outside air.
“(2) Subclause 2.10(1) does not apply if:
“(a) the blow-off valve is original equipment fitted by the
vehicle manufacturer or is a replacement; and
“(b) the vehicle has not been modified such as to increase
the noise output from the valve.”

3.1 Insertion of definition
Part 2 is amended by inserting the following definition:
“Blow-off valve means a valve fitted to an engine to relieve excess
pressure from the air intake system.”
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Postby kim0663 » Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:39 am

For a Lvv Cert. Is exhaust noise testing part of it?

Or is it separate
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Postby Mr.Phreak » Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:44 am

The exhaust cert is separate, although I imagine some certifiers will recommend doing them both at the same time and may charge accordingly.
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Postby touge rolla » Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:55 pm

Not vented directly to the outside air ae?
Well that's fine mine vents into my engine bay. :wink:
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Postby snwtoy » Tue Aug 19, 2008 6:42 pm

groupagt4 wrote:well thats not really fair im only 19. what about guys like me that are actually sensible and not a try hard. personally i dont mind the law against loud exhaust, its the bov thing that pisses me off


Well if you drive sensibly (as opposed to spirited) you won't notice the difference between a 200kw car and a 100kw car, therefore restrictions on power output would have no effect on you at all.
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Postby BigDon » Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:01 pm

Below is a draft of the submission I have prepared. To be clear i fully support the 95dba limit. I am just totally against how they are going about achieving it. I am also against having to pay to get a cert for something that is not safety issue.

Appreciate constructive comments.

My comments are in relation to the amendment as a whole and in particular to sections 2.7(5), (6), (7), 2.2 and 4.1 Schedule 3. I note that I am in favour of a 95dba stationary upper noise limit for all vehicles. However, I am stoically against the draconian methods proposed in the amendment to achieve this.

Vehicle owners have fitted modified exhausts and blow off valves to their vehicles within the confines of the laws (in the majority of cases) applicable at the time. This attempt to change the law (retrospectively) and impose fines and other costs (to retrofit or modify the vehicle) on vehicle owners who would otherwise have complied with existing legislation is clearly an affront to the legislative system in New Zealand.

The rule changes appear to be a knee jerk reaction towards a small minority of vehicles that may currently exceed 95dba. Those vehicle owners are unlikely to heed these new rules or simply find ways to frustrate them. This knee jerk reaction will be costly to a much wider proportion of the vehicle population than one would expect as the majority of second hand vehicles on New Zealand roads will have had their exhausts replaced with items that produce more than the factory exhaust noise.

Furthermore, as well as being contrary to the rule of law due to their retrospective nature, these proposed amendments also breach various aspects of the New Zealand Bill of Rights, including:

• Freedom of expression; and
• Presumption of innocence.

As well as commenting on the amendment as proposed and addressing the issues raised above, I suggest an alternative approach at the end of this submission.

The retrospective nature of these rules

The retrospective nature of these rules is clearly contrary to the Rule of Law:

Legislation Advisory Committee's Guidelines on Process
& Content of Legislation. See Chapter Three, Part 3 (extract):

"The general principle is that statutes and regulations operate prospectively, that is, they do not affect existing situations. ...
However, while the general principle is that legislation is prospective, not all examples of legislation which impacts on existing situations will be unfair (see Burrows, Statute Law in New Zealand, 1999, page 358). Examples of retrospective provisions which are seen as having only a benign effect include those which validate appointments, or provide for
backdated salary and benefit payments and new superannuation arrangements. The impact of the legislation on those affected can be assessed by considering a range of factors including the purpose of the legislation and the hardship of the result on those affected. For example, individuals may have a reasonable expectation based on entering into legal obligations, such as contracts, on the basis that the law will have a certain impact."


Freedom of Expression

Freedom of expression has a special status as a human right because we need it to promote and protect all human rights. It embraces free speech, the sanctity of an individual’s opinion, a free press, the transmission and receipt of ideas and information, the freedom of expression in art and other forms, the ability to receive ideas from elsewhere, and even the right to silence. We value freedom of expression because of what it means for us and what it helps us to attain.

Freedom of expression is one of a number of mutually supporting rights (including freedom of thought, of association and of assembly, and the right to vote) and is integral to other civil and political rights, such as the right to justice, and the right to take part in public affairs. Equally, the right to freedom of expression impacts on social and cultural rights such as the right to education.

Debate about freedom of expression is both wide reaching and constantly evolving in response to the development of the human mind, technological innovation and a globalised media, community practices and standards, and political and judicial responses. What is more constant is the fundamental idea that freedom of expression is designed to protect and enhance democratic ideals.

Freedom of expression has always been subject to limitations. Each of the arguments for freedom of expression accommodates some restrictions. For example, while the search for truth has permitted tolerance for offensive and unsettling ideas, perjury and false advertising are penalised. There may, too, be restrictions on the ‘time, manner and place’ of expression; for example, the time of screening of adult-only movies on public television.

This proposed amendment, however, attempts to curb a persons freedom of expression by imposing a financial cost on it. While the 95dba limit may be seen as a restriction this can be reconciled as a limitation for the benefit of others. The compliance costs involved in this cannot.

Presumption of innocence

Every person is entitled to be presumed innocent until proven guilty (if in fact ever proven guilty). The amendment does not uphold this principal. It assumes that a person is guilty (if they are ordered off the road due to a subjective text by a police officer) until they prove themselves innocent. While I agree that a police officer should be able to order a vehicle off the road.

Other discrimination

These rules will discriminate against lower socio economic groups on a number of levels.

This is because lower socio economic groups may purchase less expensive second hand vehicles that are more likely to have had exhausts replaced due to there age. Furthermore, these people are unlikely to be able to afford the costs of either having the exhausts tested, returning them to a standard noise level or in the worst case where the vehicle has been ordered off the road or failed the 95dba test, to the level of 90dba or less.

Section 2.7(5)(a)

The requirement for a subjective test is inappropriate. WOF Inspectors should have dba measuring equipment to test to the set limit and perform the objective test. This removes inconsistency that would otherwise exist across WOF Inspectors. Inconsistency which would stem both from the inspectors hearing ability, personal perception and knowledge of what a standard exhaust should sound like.

Furthermore, the subjective test of “less than or similar to the noise output from the vehicle’s original exhaust system at the time of the vehicle’s manufacture” is far too strict. If a subjective test is to be adopted it should be a not noticeably and significantly louder than the noise output from the vehicle’s original exhaust system at the time of the vehicle’s manufacture.

This also creates an anomaly where vehicles are fitted with louder exhausts by factory tuning houses before they are sold. This would mean that two equivalent model of cars could have different exhausts noise levels from manufacture. It also discriminates against persons who cannot afford a new vehicle with a modified exhaust and fit the same exhaust “aftermarket”.

Section 2.7(6)

Vehicles that fail a subjective test should be allowed to be (WOF Inspector) retested once the exhaust has been repaired. It is unreasonable not to allow a vehicle owner to repair the item to meet WOF standards before forcing them to under go Low Volume Vehicle Code (“LVVC”) objective testing. In fact, it would be contrary to the aim of this legislation as the objective noise test is 95dba (stationary) and allowing the vehicle owner to repair to a standard that is similar standard is likely to be well below this 95dba limit.

Schedule 3 (ref 2.7(4)(c)

It is also unreasonable that a vehicle, with a modified exhaust system, (that has either exceeded 95dBA when tested in accordance with subclause 3.1(3), or been prohibited from driving in accordance with a direction under section 115 of the Act regarding compliance with subclause 2.7(5)) should be subject to a lower 90dba limit.

This draconian rule encourages people to not have their exhausts tested pursuant to the LVVC because if they fail they will have to meet the lower standard. The rules should be encouraging testing (and I submit the testing should be occurring at the WOF inspection) so that all exhausts can be brought within the 95dba limit.

In respect of the situation where a vehicle has been ordered off the road pursuant to section 115, this creates two issues. Firstly the Police have performed a subjective test which as discussed above has a number of inconsistencies and may likely be incorrect, being that they are not trained mechanics. Secondly, there is a presumption of guilt. This is contrary to section 25 (c) of The Bill of Rights Act 1990.

Section 2.2

There has never been a prohibition against external venting blow off valves. To create a new rule that makes these illegal if fitted aftermarket is contrary to the rule of law on the basis that the amendment is retrospective rather than prospective. It also creates inconsistencies because factory blow of valves may vent externally and not be effectively silenced while after market ones may not.

Furthermore, it impinges on a persons freedom of expression and is inequitable because it discriminates between new vehicle owners and owners of modified vehicles.

Some blow of valves, however, may be modified to be excessively loud. Accordingly, irrespective of whether the blow off valve is fitted from factory or aftermarket it should be subject to the same 95dba noise limit as exhausts.


Alternate approach

A blanket 95dba standard could be imposed with a objective test carried out at WOF testing facilities.

This 95dba standard could be tested using simpler, readily available and less expensive equipment (with prescribed models) but with set test parameters e.g. operating vehicle rpms at 1 metre from exhaust pipe.

It is unlikely that significant variances would arise from this approach. Furthermore, it would make the rules simpler and less costly for vehicle owners, WOF inspectors and the LTA while ensuring noisy vehicles were removed from the road until they were repaired.

This 95dba limit could also be imposed on blow off valves.
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Postby mike227 » Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:41 pm

Looks good! I'm not sure how much luck you will have on the retrosepctive legislation side of things, but the rest looks great. Good idea for having BOV's come under 95dBA rather than just an outright ban too.

Get your submissions in everyone!
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Postby Leon » Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:12 pm

Doesn't it just say that an external BOV needs to be silenced, and the word "ban" doesn't come into it at all?
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Postby Flunk » Fri Aug 22, 2008 6:02 pm

Leon wrote:Doesn't it just say that an external BOV needs to be silenced, and the word "ban" doesn't come into it at all?


No, they are saying if its not a factory fitted item, you cant use it.
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Postby Dell'Orto » Fri Aug 22, 2008 6:17 pm

Actually no, it does say:
LTSA/LTNZ/NZTA wrote:“(2) Subclause 2.10(1) does not apply if:
“(a) the blow-off valve is original equipment fitted by the
vehicle manufacturer or is a replacement; and
“(b) the vehicle has not been modified such as to increase
the noise output from the valve.”


So you can have an aftermarket BOV, it just can't be loud.
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Postby Leon » Fri Aug 22, 2008 9:03 pm

Well done Dellorto 8)

The draft rule says
"a blow off valve must be either silenced effectively or not vented directly to the outside air"

Carry on with previous hysteria though by all means.
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Postby 1e-pwr » Fri Aug 22, 2008 9:22 pm

Dell'Orto wrote:The worst part is, while you might now be saying "yeah BOV's are [person of homosexual orientation] and loud, and big exhausts dont need to be loud" is that these sorts of laws tend to end up being followed by more and more restrictive laws and our freedom to modify cars at all ends up being totally taken away.


This is what I see happening and this is why I think we should all be worried and vigilant about this. Remember when they brought in speed cameras? There was a huge uproar about how they were simply automating the money gathering process and the police took a lot of flack over the proposal, there were a lot of mum and dad type drivers who werent really speeders but were up in arms over this due to the civil rights/privacy type issues. The police reassured us that there would only be designated 'speed camera areas' and installed signs to placate the masses. They also proclaimed that only the top 10% of speeders would be prosecuted, and that you couldnt get demerits from speed cameras. Where are we now? Stealth cameras hidden in scrub at 100km-50kmph transitional areas, with drivers prosecuted for being 5kmph over...

The thin end of the wedge? You bet your a ss. Coming in the not too distant future - no modified cars for anything other than motorsport use.


And in terms of government changes, things will be as bad and probably worse under national. Ironically, the inevitable march towards no fun in this world would be slowest with the greens in power (despite being anti motorised anything) simply because they are big on social justice and the rights of the individual
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Postby ROBODISCO_20v » Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:53 am

BigDon wrote:Below is a draft of the submission I have prepared. To be clear i fully support the 95dba limit. I am just totally against how they are going about achieving it. I am also against having to pay to get a cert for something that is not safety issue.
Appreciate constructive comments.

A tip I've been given from the hot rod boys, when dealing with government depts. you need to use touchy feely words like tradition & culture etc to get them to listen to you. Thats what they seem to understand. Hell they should know, with out the NZHRA we wouldn't be allowed to modifiy cars in this country
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Postby BigDon » Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:36 pm

Effectivley silenced (what does this mean) not long before that becomes not louder than factory, then its oh your car never had an external blow off valve oh dear guess you cant meet the test then. No wof for you go put the factory internal one back on.

I dont even own a turbo car, but this is the thin edge of the wedge Im sick of prius driving, pc pussys trying to curb what we can do.

Furthermore, recent a study in California has shown quiet hybrid cars are BAD for anyone walking because they dont hear them and get run over.

Leon is MSNZ submitting on this for ALL of the members who have road legal club cars (including myself)? And what are they doing re the ability for our sub 95dba exhausts to be added to our authority cards, which the rules provide for.

I would fully expect everyone who has whinged in this post to put in a submission, you have two to copy so make sure you do!
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Postby touge rolla » Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:48 pm

Dell'Orto wrote:So you can have an aftermarket BOV, it just can't be loud.

But that leaves us at the subjective definition of "Loud".
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