while starting, Clutch in or out?

[Bling]

always leave my car in gear so it doesn't roll away / doesn't make it easy to roll away without setting off alarm and always put clutch in when starting. Driving instructor told me its a good habit to stop wear on something many many years ago, I guess the habit stayed.

will continue to do it i think, but it sounds nasty what it does!

[method]

4G63 turbo engines are VERY VERY common for thrust failure and crank walk.
Mainly due to the later model evos having pull clutches, and starting with foot on clutch.
Seen four evo 4 engines at work with the same problem, bin the crank and the block. Once it chews through the bearings it eats into the block

Evo 4's are the worst for that aswell.

Never heard of a case in NZ.

I know its common in the states, no idea why its not as common here.

[Dell'Orto]

I've seen a couple do it.

[johndoe1025]

i always start with clutch in, if you read the owners manual of a car im pretty sure it tells you to do so aswell. i do it for the freak chance that that one day if i dont ill bunny hop my car into the back of the nice expensive beemer in paralleld in fronta me. or do what i did when i was like 10, jump in dads supercharged camry parked in front of the garage and crank it in 1st lucky i turned the key off with bout 2cm to go heh

[matt dunn]

Has anyone noticed that almost all 6 speed manuals need the clutch in to start.

Wanna know why?

try starting a tractor with the PTO engaged.

With the six speed boxes they are so much heavier inside that for the starter motor to try and crank over the motor and try to crank over all the gears through the oil in the box puts extreme load on the starter.

And if you have seen the size of a modern starter armature,
you'll see that they are not that big, especially reduction ones.

Later model Toyota starters have armatures so small you can enclose them in the palm of your hand almost.


So clutch in to save your starter motor.

[frost]

yeah but save a $100-$200 starter or save the $1000-$2000 crank and block,

is there a telltale sign that the crank is starting to wear the thrust washers and walking? funny knocking? rear seals leaking?
all the 4age engines in my garage don't show extreme thrust washer wear, not even the ones starved of oil and run big ends, nor the 3sgte's

must be a yank pig iron problem

[RunningRich]

Never start with the clutch in as stated, in the case of my clutch (2300 lb clamp pressure from memory) it places *all* of the pressure needed to open the clutch straight onto the thrust bearings.

Imagine turning your crank on end, sitting a car on top of it and spinning it dry. Then imagine what that does to the bearings...

The manufacturers put a relay in to make you hold the clutch in purely for liability. It means you can't sue them when the toddler you left in the car turns the key and runs you over.

Of course they know that the bearings get damaged, but on a standard car it won't happen within the warranty period which is all they care about. The odd replacement crank easily outweighs being sued for millions in the US.

It would take 10 minutes for a decent sparky to remove the relay if you wish.

[1I1]

4G63 turbo engines are VERY VERY common for thrust failure and crank walk.
Mainly due to the later model evos having pull clutches, and starting with foot on clutch.
Seen four evo 4 engines at work with the same problem, bin the crank and the block. Once it chews through the bearings it eats into the block

Evo 4's are the worst for that aswell.

Never heard of a case in NZ.

I know its common in the states, no idea why its not as common here.

Speaking to the old man about this last night (works for a mitsi dealership) - he said if you speak to the people in the know this is very common for the 4's. And a car salesman i know is building an evo4 into a track monster - guess how he got the car so cheap? yup engine in pieces with a stuffed crank and block

[Pelo]

I think that the "clutch in or no start" thing is a "safety feature", so you don't run over some poor fool or smack into a wall when starting the car in gear.

I did that once (hit a wall)

[Stealer Of Souls]

The things you learn!!
Still... The old 2E rolla never had issues after nearly 20 years of use and abuse.
So it's really a problem on "high powered" cars given that they have heavy pressure plates?

Might have to rethink now... I always did it on the freak chance that the gearbox didn't actually disengage despite feeling like it's in neutral. Also I didn't like the idea of putting the whole gearbox assemble on the started too... Seemed like cheap insurance. Maybe it isnt'...

[xsspeed]

Are you saying the 2E isn't high powered?

Yeah seems like its more an issue with higher clamping pressures.

So when in nuetral and starting (clutch out) the starter is rotating what? one shaft of the gearbox? Is that enough load to kill a starter?

In my 2e rolla when I was a student and ran out of gas on the way to the petrol station (happenned a few times ) I would just crank the starter with clutch just biting, in gear and ride on the starter motor the rest of the way.

Still starts 1st pop

[MrOizo]

I think that the "clutch in or no start" thing is a "safety feature", so you don't run over some poor fool or smack into a wall when starting the car in gear.

I did that once (hit a wall)

Yeah - think it was law in the US. most cars there have them.

People had engines running bearings after rebuild because of this read it some where on supraforums.com

[Stealer Of Souls]

Are you saying the 2E isn't high powered?
Yeah seems like its more an issue with higher clamping pressures.
So when in nuetral and starting (clutch out) the starter is rotating what? one shaft of the gearbox? Is that enough load to kill a gearbox?
In my 2e rolla when I was a student and ran out of gas on the way to the petrol station (happenned a few times ) I would just crank the starter with clutch just biting, in gear and ride on the starter motor the rest of the way.
Still starts 1st pop

2E POWAH! Not so much killing the gearbox as loading up the start with a bit extra. Used to be prone to having a dodgy battery. So anything that stressed the starter motor was an issue. Still. My main thing was always the "what if" of the gearbox actually somehow still being engaged in gear.

[xsspeed]

sorry meant kill the starter

[Py7h0n]

It can take very little time for the damage to happen with a heavy pressure plate (the pictures I posted up were after 5000km). Then again it may last 10 years, who knows?

If your car does have a clutch pedal switch to require starting then why not remove it to be on the safe side?

Very simple to prevent crank walk so why not just change your habits and prevent it?

[RollaGT_87]

I think that the "clutch in or no start" thing is a "safety feature", so you don't run over some poor fool or smack into a wall when starting the car in gear.

I did that once (hit a wall)

You n me both... cept u were lucky and hit a wall
People tend 2 get a little cranky when ya run them over
No damage of course but it gives ya a bit of a fright when you go to start off and mow ya mate down

[pc]

change the clutch switch to a neutral switch... solved

[Stealer Of Souls]

reviving a slightly stale post...

Was thinking about this the other night.
It wouldn't just be starting that's an issue would it? It would be all the time you have the clutch depressed and the car is running.... So sitting at lights with the clutch depressed would be bad too?

[1I1]

reviving a slightly stale post...

Was thinking about this the other night.
It wouldn't just be starting that's an issue would it? It would be all the time you have the clutch depressed and the car is running.... So sitting at lights with the clutch depressed would be bad too?

think someone mentioned lack of oil on thrust washers when cold starting

[Stealer Of Souls]

oh yeah...
So only an issue since there is no oil on it? Or does the oil reduce the problem?