Election 08

Burning questions of the day answered by the Toyspeed populace

Moderator: The Mod Squad

Who are you voting for?

National
62
55%
Labour
20
18%
Greens
4
4%
NZ First
3
3%
ACT
9
8%
Maori
2
2%
Other
12
11%
 
Total votes : 112

Postby Jet_boy01 » Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:18 am

Just do a quick google search and you'll find plenty of facts...

Heres a quick little one directly from NZ Business Roundtable back in 2004;
http://www.nzbr.org.nz/documents/policy ... PB_No5.pdf

Think back to Muldoon's "Think Big" era back in the 80's... what happened when David Lange came in and started to deregulate the economy and sell off some of the SOE that Muldoon brought into, NZ prospered as an economy.

I never said anywhere that it has given Kiwi's either better and/or cheaper services, however it is certainly the case. A business that is doing very well is clearly going to be expanding and offering more job's to the citizens of our country.

I suggest you do a little more research into the matter yourself,

pc wrote:I believe privatisation only makes things worse for average joe, so IMO National will f*** the country worse.


Feel free to share some facts that support this arguement.
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Postby B1NZ » Thu Oct 16, 2008 6:00 pm

d1 mule wrote:
Mr Revhead wrote:a vote for anyone other than labour or national is just a waste


i completely agree.


I dont agree, Some of the minor parties have provided good policies, Wasnt Kiwibank Progressives (Anderton) idea?

Why does everyone think Labour has dragged the economy down? People seem to forget the last few years we have had, They only notice the bad points/times. The slowing economy is not due to the government, it's the whole world economy slowing down.
Im sure the economy would be even worse if Cullen hadn't held off spending the surplus in previous years.

I for one dont trust Key at all and therefore will not be voting for him. He retracts statements and changes his mind once he gets found wanting.
Lets all let a Stockbroker manage our country, They seem to be dooing well elsewhere :lol:
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Postby Mr Revhead » Thu Oct 16, 2008 6:26 pm

B1NZ wrote:I for one dont trust Key at all and therefore will not be voting for him. He retracts statements and changes his mind once he gets found wanting.



show me these situations your talking about
sounds like the usual labour party rhetoric you hear uncle helen spouting off when shes runs out of anything intelligent to say. which you will notice is every 2nd thing that comes out of her mouth....

now... the last few years
anti smacking
election finance act
regional petrol taxes
military supply cock ups (just about everything they bought)

just a couple off the top of my head that have pissed me off huge amounts
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Postby jonno* » Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:09 pm

sergei wrote:Could you please put "No one" as option, as I feel there are a lot of people who think every single party is full of it.
I say, round up all politicians and shoot them. All they care about is either/all about money, power, fame.
Do you think Helen cares that I have to give over 30% to the government just to pay for some bastards thirteenth kid?
Or John, who will give my ~30% to his rich buddies as tax relieve?
Or whoever is in charge of greens will waste it on some stupid pot smoking plan?
Or Maori who will put into iwi?
Where is real socialist party, that will cut amount government workers by 70%, make all the politicians pay for their travel expenses, cut the dole and encourage people to work? And ffs stop paying for kids, 1st kid should be helped with, 2nd kid maybe 50% of what has been given for first, 3 kids you are on your own, and 4 or more should be penalised (take the buggers away, like I care, breeding is antisocial behaviour when it is relied greatly on others, or even sterilize people after five kids).

For ignorant bastards socialism is not communism.
I know great deal about communism, and Labour stinks of it.

From my point of view, the whole voting is a big farce. All they do is create hot air and waste money.


If you think a third way social democracy in one of the most liberalized trading environments in the world 'stinks of communism' then I'm afraid you know nothing whatsoever about the subject.

As for your others comments - jesus christ

Mind pointing out what 'putting into iwi' is? Or how big of a focus the current green party policy has on marijuana law reform?

I'm also very intrigued as to your perception of socialism - where does punishing people for having children, cutting social welfare and reducing the number of people employed by the state fit into it?
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Postby touge rolla » Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:36 pm

B1NZ wrote:Why does everyone think Labour has dragged the economy down? People seem to forget the last few years we have had, They only notice the bad points/times. The slowing economy is not due to the government, it's the whole world economy slowing down.
Im sure the economy would be even worse if Cullen hadn't held off spending the surplus in previous years.


Yep everyone has forgotten how well the economy has been going for the previous 8 years, and how shite it was in the 90's
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Postby Bling » Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:40 pm

Mr Revhead wrote:imo majority rules is better than a small percentage of nutters having a major say due to the power plays MMP creates


Thing is, no party will get a majority of the votes, so without MMP, a party with 40% of the vote can rule. Meaning 60% of the countries voters do NOT want the party with 40% to rule :lol:

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Postby B1NZ » Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:00 pm

Mr Revhead wrote:
B1NZ wrote:I for one dont trust Key at all and therefore will not be voting for him. He retracts statements and changes his mind once he gets found wanting.



show me these situations your talking about
sounds like the usual labour party rhetoric you hear uncle helen spouting off when shes runs out of anything intelligent to say. which you will notice is every 2nd thing that comes out of her mouth....

now... the last few years
anti smacking
election finance act
regional petrol taxes
military supply cock ups (just about everything they bought)

just a couple off the top of my head that have pissed me off huge amounts


The 1 that springs to mind is his affording his tax cuts without cutting other services, We found out last week that kiwibank for one will be sold off, as well as the govt contrubutions for kiwisaver reduced.

Not for your issues:

Anti smacking, I also didnt like this policy when it was introduced, but as far as I know it has lived up to its word and an innocent person has not been found guilty under this so far. Its more of a deterrent than anything.

Election finances act: NO idea about that one sorry, fill us in.

Regional Petrol taxes: People moan about paying for Aucklands roads when they dont use them, The same will be said about transmission gully if it ever happens, so if the people that use these roads are taxed rather than Joe bloggs from Timaru, then isnt that a good thing?

Military spending: I heard about some issues with the LAV but I was under the impression they were teething issues and had been resolved? The same with the new multirole ship for the navy, Besides isnt the Aussies fault? They were supposed to supply a suitable ship for the role? Most ships have teething issues, look at the aratere when it first came into service for the interisland line
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Postby sergei » Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:24 pm

jonno* wrote:
If you think a third way social democracy in one of the most liberalized trading environments in the world 'stinks of communism' then I'm afraid you know nothing whatsoever about the subject.

As for your others comments - jesus christ

Mind pointing out what 'putting into iwi' is? Or how big of a focus the current green party policy has on marijuana law reform?

I'm also very intrigued as to your perception of socialism - where does punishing people for having children, cutting social welfare and reducing the number of people employed by the state fit into it?


I was exaggerating. But think about it, is any of the politicians are there for genuine doing good?
Countries should be run by warriors, scientists and engineers. There is no place for politicians.
The whole purpose of the politician makes no sense.
What they do? They lie, and decide for our future with their own interest in mind.
As for cutting welfare, there is too much going around. I am paying ridiculous amount of taxes for what I earn, and that is under "Social-democratic" government.
As far as communism goes, you have no idea what is the communism, you can read books, watch history channel, and still don't know what it is. Ideal communism is the utopia you see in Star Trek. That is what communism meant to be. Real communism is completely other thing, I grew up in it.
As for socialism -> cutting welfare is very socialistic, people should not have any excuses not to work. Remember under socialist-communist (two different things combined together) it was illegal not to work. You could go in jail for sitting on your arse. Population control is very socialistic too. China comes to mind.

As for iwi, thing, in my opinion the whole maori concept should be broken apart and forgotten. There are no real genetic maoris. There might be a culture, but that should not be more significant than chinese culture for example.

Maori party is illegal by definition as it is discrimination against the rest of population.

The whole special treatment for maori is discriminative to other ethnic minorities.

If maoris think they have been opressed, just look at Europe, the whole ethnic groups where almost wiped into extinction and no one gives them a better treatment.
In fact the region I come from had romans, tatar-mongol, russians, turks, russians, turks again, and russians constantly invading and killing off and no one gives a special treatment to descendants of the indigenous population.

I am opening a can of worms here, but I have lived long enough in NZ to see flaws in government here.
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Postby jonno* » Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:25 pm

Jet_boy01 wrote:Just do a quick google search and you'll find plenty of facts...

Heres a quick little one directly from NZ Business Roundtable back in 2004;
http://www.nzbr.org.nz/documents/policy ... PB_No5.pdf

Think back to Muldoon's "Think Big" era back in the 80's... what happened when David Lange came in and started to deregulate the economy and sell off some of the SOE that Muldoon brought into, NZ prospered as an economy.

I never said anywhere that it has given Kiwi's either better and/or cheaper services, however it is certainly the case. A business that is doing very well is clearly going to be expanding and offering more job's to the citizens of our country.

I suggest you do a little more research into the matter yourself,

pc wrote:I believe privatisation only makes things worse for average joe, so IMO National will f*** the country worse.


Feel free to share some facts that support this arguement.


Dude...you're using the business roundtable as a reference when promoting privatization?

As for the impact of the 1984 economic reforms on new zealand communities, as well as removing global barriers to trade - while I'm not completely defending think big, have a read of the things people like jane kelsey and CAFCA write. Think big was arguably necessary due to world oil prices, britain joining the european economic community - and we still use all the stuff that was built! Hydroelectric power, marsden point, etc. Nz's 'prospering' (if you can call it that) in the 80's and 90's, well, you can thank ruth richardson and roger douglas for that - ask a factory or forestry worker or beneficiary what they thought about the 'prosperous' new zealand society under national.

As for this

" It's a well known fact that private enterprises generally do alot better than their government owned counterparts. There is no real incentive for a government run company to make profits like there is with a privately owned company."

Sorry bro but this is bullshit. I'm guessing you've heard john key and bill english say this right?

Ever flown on the best airline in the world, Singapore airlines? (guess what: it's a state owned enterprise) Used the best phones in the world, Nokia? You know nokia was propped up by the government and its electronics division didn't make a profit for 17 years? Same goes for any south korean electronics you have in your house.

I'm guessing you drive a toyota because you use these forums right? Think they make the best cars in the world? Did you know if it wasn't for extensive government intervention in the economy toyota wouldn't exist today? Have a read of this article then: http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/arti ... hp?id=9653

The market doesn't always know best - but this is what people like key and douglas think. I'm not defending michael cullen because he's a blundering history lecturer, but you should read some ha-joon chang (get the books 'kicking away the ladder' and 'bad samaritans' out of the library) before you adopt the same boring "private ownership/neoliberalism = efficiency/prosperity" ideals. Smart government intervention in the economy rules and protecting state owned enterprises is a vital part of this.
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Postby jonno* » Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:44 pm

Mr Revhead wrote:
B1NZ wrote:I for one dont trust Key at all and therefore will not be voting for him. He retracts statements and changes his mind once he gets found wanting.



show me these situations your talking about
sounds like the usual labour party rhetoric you hear uncle helen spouting off when shes runs out of anything intelligent to say. which you will notice is every 2nd thing that comes out of her mouth....

now... the last few years
anti smacking
election finance act
regional petrol taxes
military supply cock ups (just about everything they bought)

just a couple off the top of my head that have pissed me off huge amounts


Hmm. These things have pissed you off hugely?

The fact that now you can't use discipline as a legitimate defence in case you get arrested for assaulting your children?

That it's now harder for business interests to influence democracy in new zealand? That small numbers of people can't donate massively disproportionate amounts of money anonymously? I'd suggest reading the hollow men by nicky hager if you didn't think foreign influence and big business dollars didn't play a massively important role in the 2005 elections - national didn't gain 20 points purely due to don brash's personable nature.

Regional petrol taxes? B1NZ explained that nicely.

And really - let's be frank - the only issue for military spending in New Zealand of all places is making sure that the amount of money they receive that isn't for humanitarian or coastguard work is as minimal as possible. Are you annoyed that we aren't wasting money buying old planes from the australians or americans?
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Postby Mr Revhead » Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:32 pm

B1NZ wrote:Election finances act: NO idea about that one sorry, fill us in.


been in the news a lot lately....

the labour government has screwed up pretty every major defence contract they have undertaken...
the charles upham, its replacement (which they had to buy coz the upham cant do what it was bought for....
the LAVs were more than minor teething problems.... and they werent the best choice.
all the issues and delays with the new patrol boats.. and the remaining ANZAC frigates.
there were others i have forgotten too... oh and the skyhawk debacle

yes i think we should still have an offensive capability in our armed forces, and yes we need to get over the stupid nuclear free idea.

kiwibank to be sold? were/when did they say that?
the reason national had to change their tax plans is until labour released the finance reports they didnt know it was so bad! so they reacted to the new situation...... would you rather they didnt react to changing situations?

the anti smacking law is bullshit, and there have been cases of innocent ppl being charged with it, waste of time and resources. thankfully it looks like there wil be a referendum on it next year.

jono.... nicky hagar? :lol: you must be joking

Regional Petrol taxes: People moan about paying for Aucklands roads when they dont use them, The same will be said about transmission gully if it ever happens, so if the people that use these roads are taxed rather than Joe bloggs from Timaru, then isnt that a good thing?


it would be, if it wasnt ON TOP of all the extra tax on petrol anyway.
you telling me that WHEN wellington put 10c extra on petrol you wont complain?
remove the tax thats meant to go to the roading then add the regional tax, thats ok, but thats not what they want to do
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Postby Jet_boy01 » Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:46 pm

jonno* wrote:[Dude...you're using the business roundtable as a reference when promoting privatization?

As for the impact of the 1984 economic reforms on new zealand communities, as well as removing global barriers to trade - while I'm not completely defending think big, have a read of the things people like jane kelsey and CAFCA write. Think big was arguably necessary due to world oil prices, britain joining the european economic community - and we still use all the stuff that was built! Hydroelectric power, marsden point, etc. Nz's 'prospering' (if you can call it that) in the 80's and 90's, well, you can thank ruth richardson and roger douglas for that - ask a factory or forestry worker or beneficiary what they thought about the 'prosperous' new zealand society under national.

As for this

" It's a well known fact that private enterprises generally do alot better than their government owned counterparts. There is no real incentive for a government run company to make profits like there is with a privately owned company."

Sorry bro but this is bullshit. I'm guessing you've heard john key and bill english say this right?

Ever flown on the best airline in the world, Singapore airlines? (guess what: it's a state owned enterprise) Used the best phones in the world, Nokia? You know nokia was propped up by the government and its electronics division didn't make a profit for 17 years? Same goes for any south korean electronics you have in your house.

I'm guessing you drive a toyota because you use these forums right? Think they make the best cars in the world? Did you know if it wasn't for extensive government intervention in the economy toyota wouldn't exist today? Have a read of this article then: http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/arti ... hp?id=9653

The market doesn't always know best - but this is what people like key and douglas think. I'm not defending michael cullen because he's a blundering history lecturer, but you should read some ha-joon chang (get the books 'kicking away the ladder' and 'bad samaritans' out of the library) before you adopt the same boring "private ownership/neoliberalism = efficiency/prosperity" ideals. Smart government intervention in the economy rules and protecting state owned enterprises is a vital part of this.


Of course everyone has their own views, yes I have heard Key say it, spoken to him personally on the issue a couple of times infact, he was not the one that gave me my opinions on the matter however, I will stand by that arugement 100% - there is plenty of research out there to back this up, you seem to be resonably well informed so no point telling you to read this and that.

The business roundtable was a poor example, I was just in a rush and couldn't be bothered dragging up some very credible sources on the matter, most people wouldnt bother reading it anyway.

You only managed to mention one ligitimate SOE there, that being Singapore Airlines. Indeed I have flown with them, I'm not one to label them as the best in the world or with Nokia but thats an entirely different matter haha.

Just because the government injected alot of cash into their businesses and they came out on top as a result doesn't necessarily mean we should save all failing businesses does it? I'm not opposed to government intervention in some cases, it certainly has worked well in some circumstances.

What are your views on Globalization and Free Trade etc Jonno*?
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Postby fivebob » Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:47 pm

jonno* wrote:Dude...you're using the business roundtable as a reference when promoting privatization?

jonno* wrote:I'd suggest reading the hollow men by nicky hager

Pot, Kettle, Black :lol: :lol: :lol:

Actually it's worse than that, at least the Business Round table has some credibility ;)
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Postby jonno* » Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:32 pm

the labour government has screwed up pretty every major defence contract they have undertaken...
the charles upham, its replacement (which they had to buy coz the upham cant do what it was bought for....
the LAVs were more than minor teething problems.... and they werent the best choice.
all the issues and delays with the new patrol boats.. and the remaining ANZAC frigates.
there were others i have forgotten too... oh and the skyhawk debacle

yes i think we should still have an offensive capability in our armed forces, and yes we need to get over the stupid nuclear free idea.


Newsflash: Military spending is a complete waste of money that's sorely needed in other areas that aren't concerned with killing people. It's funny that you think our military is in such terrible shape and isn't offensive enough - just last week I had a lecture by the head policy director from the ministry of defense who said our military is perfectly fine for the function it's meant to serve - peacekeeping and humanitarian missions, and that the 'can't fly, can't fight, can't sail' report was complete bollocks. As for repealing the nuclear free legislation, you'd be hard pressed to find one good reason for doing this, apart from getting a closer relationship with the united states and their foreign policy, which is not regarded as 'a good thing' but feel free to offer alternative benefits to doing this.

the anti smacking law is bullshit, and there have been cases of innocent ppl being charged with it, waste of time and resources. thankfully it looks like there wil be a referendum on it next year.


Sorry, bollocks again. Can you find me an example of somebody being charged over the anti smacking law since it was passed? I had somebody look on the law school database and they didn't find a single case.

As for the referendum, the question on it is "Should a smack as part of good parental correction be a criminal offence in New Zealand?". I'm sorry, but you're as likely to be charged with this law if you smack your kid as you are for doing 51k in a 50k zone. The referendum question has nothing to do with the law, the same as how in 1999 92% of people voted for "the proposition that restitution and more support be provided for victims of crime and that violent offenders be subject to longer prison sentences and hard labour." It's a bullshit question and just like in 99, nobody in power is going to take the referendum seriously.

You're also not mentioning that the anti smacking law passed nearly unanimously, 113-7.

As for nicky hagar, I'm assuming you guys

a) haven't read the hollow men and are writing him off due to your own bias
b) are forgetting that he wrote a particularly damaging book about labour in 2002, seeds of distrust, and has said he could've probably written the hollow men about labour as well.
c) nobody seems to be denying what he's written. don brash tried to get the courts to stop the book coming out - not because its claims are false, but because his emails had been 'stolen'. does that say anything?
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Postby Mr Revhead » Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:14 pm

dude....

are you the guy that writes helens rhetoric?
coz you sound like her


military spending a waste of money? oh dear, your one of them.....

sorry im wrong

now lets just all have a big hug and the world will be fine :roll:

when you get out of uni and have had a few years in the real world let me know. thanks

so all our ships are fully manned and operational?
our battalions properly equipped and ready to go?
planes maintained and fueled up?
yeah right.
if its all ok and fine... then how comes all the reports say its not?
how comes theres had to be investigations into how they have gone about buying things?
i agree it should a have a strong disaster relief focus, they cant even do that!!

as for anti smacking charges... i can recall two off the top of my head, guy in chch, and i think the other was in a masterton supermarket.
why do we need an overly oppressive law against something thats already illegal??

nicky hagar is about as credible as mike moore (the american) no, wait. hes not even that credible
he's nothing but sensationalist author playing on the gullibility of the type of ppl who think JFK was assassinated by elvis and the butt probing aliens from phobos iv

As for repealing the nuclear free legislation, you'd be hard pressed to find one good reason for doing this, apart from getting a closer relationship with the united states and their foreign policy, which is not regarded as 'a good thing' but feel free to offer alternative benefits to doing this

nuclear power
theres one

allowing us closer relations with the USA, no that doesn't mean being on the frontline in iraq, or following their policys. but it would open the way to better trade relations with USA.
theres two!


now, enough of this back and forth on the internet
go read some papers
watch the news
look at some websites.
LOOK
LISTEN
THINK


now im pissed, you'v forced me to be serious for a whole post
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Postby Mr Revhead » Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:35 pm

oh, one more thing

and this is something that i just cant understand....

helen clark is so fast on the insults, every chance she gets shes insulting her opponents, usually in a very childish petty manner. it goes beyond disagreeing with them, she really does sound like a 6 year old in the playground, albeit one good with longer words

honestly, and please every one who wants to vote labour, please answer this...
honestly how can you justify that? doesnt that make you ashamed to want to support her? doesnt that make you question her integrity and policies if she has to resort to name calling and slandering? instead of reasoned explanations of her stance?

hell, it makes me ashamed to say shes the PM
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Postby Mr.Phreak » Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:00 am

Mr Revhead wrote:helen clark is so fast on the insults, every chance she gets shes insulting her opponents, usually in a very childish petty manner. it goes beyond disagreeing with them, she really does sound like a 6 year old in the playground, albeit one good with longer words

That sounds like pretty much every speaking politician in the house, watching Parliament TV for any length of time is sickening
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Postby method » Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:04 am

Very good points you have fivebob, wish i could argue with you more but to be honest i know $&#$% all about anything.

The is the obvious short term benefit of selling successful companies such as kiwibank but i think there in lies a problem. Why not shift focus to a longer term sustainable way of running the country.

What benifit does joe average get from the sale of kiwibank?
At the moment joe is getting good bank deals from a bank that will not rip him off. And with the investment producing returns for the government there is potentially more money for health care, law enforcement, education, infrastructure in the long term which will all benifit joe average. It is something i think a lot of people need.

Selling the company may benefit Joe in the short term but it is bad long term planning we suffer from.

I absolutely agree the government should not have a place in competitive business, it does make me think that kiwibank should not be government owned. Maybe the commerce commission should do more to protect joe from getting raw deals. Banking seems to be hardly competitive. Same deal with oil companies. There must be a sweet spot between socialism and privatising every $&#$% thing under the sun

I have nothing against privatisation, frankly i cant understand why things like roading cant be partially privatised especially in areas like auckland where there is a potential for profit. So long as it is properly regulated by the regional councils, transit or something i think it could be a good economic step forwards.
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Postby Mr Revhead » Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:47 am

Mr.Phreak wrote:
Mr Revhead wrote:helen clark is so fast on the insults, every chance she gets shes insulting her opponents, usually in a very childish petty manner. it goes beyond disagreeing with them, she really does sound like a 6 year old in the playground, albeit one good with longer words

That sounds like pretty much every speaking politician in the house, watching Parliament TV for any length of time is sickening


yeah watching is pretty sickening, but helen takes it to another level in interviews etc
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Postby geishaboy » Fri Oct 17, 2008 5:26 pm

I wont actually be in New Zealand for the election, Im pretty sure I can vote from overseas, but I dont think I will bother. In my opinion New Zealand went to complete s**t years ago.

If I did, I would probably vote for that legalise weed party, because they are probably the only ones that would do what they promised when elected.

Either that or vote for which ever party can stamp out the rediculous crime rate in New Zealand
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geishaboy
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