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Postby JustinSpiderholden » Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:52 am

TRD Man wrote:Fivebob makes a lot of sense, however I wouldn't be so dismissive of Schummacher as a 'great'. Particularly if you're comparing him to Senna.
Both were very similar particularly in their determination to win at all costs.
At first glance you could be forgiven for believing Senna to be the more technically proficient however let's remember that it is Schu's skill, knowledge, 'feel', his ability to build a cohesive team and his unrivalled workrate that is credited with turning Ferrari from an also ran into the championship winning team it was for so many years. That and seven world titles? If that doesn't rate him as amongst the greatest I'd love to see the criteria.

Is Hamilton a great driver? Of course he is. They're all great - whether they're likeable or not. They don't hand these titles out just for turning up. And to be the dominant driver in both his rookie and subsequent years, and the renowned 'man to beat', so early in his career, speaks volumes.

It's intriguing to read some younger members views on past era that they could not have witnessed due to their age. How many of you have ever heard of Ronnie Peterson? One of the most talented men ever to sit behind the wheel of an F1 car and my all time favorite.

You want to talk about greatness? This is greatness!

"... and for 1978 he returned to Lotus as a number two to Mario Andretti. Mario at first questioned this arrangement as he well new that Ronnie was no number two. As an indication of his character Ronnie accepted this position without malice; a far cry from the political intrigue that is Formula 1 today. Together they dominated the 1978 season in the Lotus 79 with Peterson scoring a pair of spectacular wins. Peterson acted the loyal number two but there were time when his brilliance could not be masked. He out qualified his teammate at Brands Hatch even though he was using hard compound tires, rather than the qualifiers which were held for Andretti, and a half tank of gas! After his victory at Zeltweg in Austria he trailed Andretti by only 9 points with 4 races remaining. It was well known that he would be with another team in 1979 and some suggested that he should just go for the championship with nothing to lose. Nothing except his word: "I'm going to McLaren next year", he said. "It's not announced yet, but Mario knows, Some of these people," he sighed, "who say I should forget our agreement now... I don't understand them. I had open eyes when I signed the contract, and I also gave my word. If I break it now, who will ever trust me again?" At the next race Andretti's car broke an exhaust and lost power yet Peterson followed him over the line. Peterson felt that his time would come next year, as he had been offered a number one position with McLaren."


Poor guy trusting Ron Dennis, we all know how well he treats people who are supposed to be the number 1
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Postby fivebob » Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:21 pm

TRD Man wrote:If that doesn't rate him as amongst the greatest I'd love to see the criteria.

Greatness is not always about what you achieve, but also how you achieve it.

I rate him as a talented driver, probably the best of his generation, but his tactics such as running Villeneuve off the road to try and win the championship (which resulted in his disqualification from the championship), purposely crashing in qualifying at Monaco, and most of all his need to have a team mate to back him up and hand him the win if needed, take the shine of his career and IMO keep him from greatness.
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Postby fivebob » Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:23 pm

JustinSpiderholden wrote:
TRD Man wrote:"... and for 1978 he returned to Lotus as a number two to Mario Andretti. Mario at first questioned this arrangement as he well new that Ronnie was no number two. As an indication of his character Ronnie accepted this position without malice; a far cry from the political intrigue that is Formula 1 today. Together they dominated the 1978 season in the Lotus 79 with Peterson scoring a pair of spectacular wins. Peterson acted the loyal number two but there were time when his brilliance could not be masked. He out qualified his teammate at Brands Hatch even though he was using hard compound tires, rather than the qualifiers which were held for Andretti, and a half tank of gas! After his victory at Zeltweg in Austria he trailed Andretti by only 9 points with 4 races remaining. It was well known that he would be with another team in 1979 and some suggested that he should just go for the championship with nothing to lose. Nothing except his word: "I'm going to McLaren next year", he said. "It's not announced yet, but Mario knows, Some of these people," he sighed, "who say I should forget our agreement now... I don't understand them. I had open eyes when I signed the contract, and I also gave my word. If I break it now, who will ever trust me again?" At the next race Andretti's car broke an exhaust and lost power yet Peterson followed him over the line. Peterson felt that his time would come next year, as he had been offered a number one position with McLaren."


Poor guy trusting Ron Dennis, we all know how well he treats people who are supposed to be the number 1

Nice try, but you're showing you lack of knowledge of F1. Ron wasn't at McLaren until Sept. 1980 :lol:

Besides which McLaren doesn't have number 1 drivers, at least not under Ron's management. Which has caused them problems in the past like the Senna/Prost team mate wars ;)
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Postby thornz » Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:32 pm

fivebob wrote:
JustinSpiderholden wrote:
TRD Man wrote:"... and for 1978 he returned to Lotus as a number two to Mario Andretti. Mario at first questioned this arrangement as he well new that Ronnie was no number two. As an indication of his character Ronnie accepted this position without malice; a far cry from the political intrigue that is Formula 1 today. Together they dominated the 1978 season in the Lotus 79 with Peterson scoring a pair of spectacular wins. Peterson acted the loyal number two but there were time when his brilliance could not be masked. He out qualified his teammate at Brands Hatch even though he was using hard compound tires, rather than the qualifiers which were held for Andretti, and a half tank of gas! After his victory at Zeltweg in Austria he trailed Andretti by only 9 points with 4 races remaining. It was well known that he would be with another team in 1979 and some suggested that he should just go for the championship with nothing to lose. Nothing except his word: "I'm going to McLaren next year", he said. "It's not announced yet, but Mario knows, Some of these people," he sighed, "who say I should forget our agreement now... I don't understand them. I had open eyes when I signed the contract, and I also gave my word. If I break it now, who will ever trust me again?" At the next race Andretti's car broke an exhaust and lost power yet Peterson followed him over the line. Peterson felt that his time would come next year, as he had been offered a number one position with McLaren."


Poor guy trusting Ron Dennis, we all know how well he treats people who are supposed to be the number 1

Nice try, but you're showing you lack of knowledge of F1. Ron wasn't at McLaren until Sept. 1980 :lol:

Besides which McLaren doesn't have number 1 drivers, at least not under Ron's management. Which has caused them problems in the past like the Senna/Prost team mate wars ;)

I hope that was made tongue in cheek :wink:
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Postby fivebob » Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:41 pm

thornz wrote:
fivebob wrote:Besides which McLaren doesn't have number 1 drivers, at least not under Ron's management. Which has caused them problems in the past like the Senna/Prost team mate wars ;)

I hope that was made tongue in cheek :wink:


Nope, I'm 100% serious on that one. If you knew anything about the history of McLaren then you'd understand why that is the case. :)
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Postby thornz » Wed Nov 05, 2008 2:11 pm

Okay I'll agree in part with taht in that they dont publically state they have a number one, but you would have to be living under a rock to believe that to be the absolute truth.
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Postby JustinSpiderholden » Wed Nov 05, 2008 2:31 pm

thornz wrote:Okay I'll agree in part with taht in that they dont publically state they have a number one, but you would have to be living under a rock to believe that to be the absolute truth.


Im sure if Kovalinen had been in the 5th postion Timo Glock had been im sure team orders would have been made

Until someone else gets 7 titles and 5 in a row Suchmacher will the greatest IMO

Hamilton is still young and has alot to prove IMO, but if he old man carrys on the way he does, His F1 career might be over sooner than we know
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Postby fivebob » Wed Nov 05, 2008 2:52 pm

thornz wrote:Okay I'll agree in part with taht in that they dont publically state they have a number one, but you would have to be living under a rock to believe that to be the absolute truth.

No you wouldn't, but you would have to understand the history of McLaren and it's attitude to getting the best performance out of it's drivers. They may have a driver pairing where one driver is more talented that the other, but they treat them equally with respect to the resources they are given. Until one driver is in a postion that his team mate cannot win the championship, there are no "team orders"

If you have a #1 & #2 driver then the #2 driver is never going to perform to their best, and you will never realise the investment you make in that driver. When you #1 driver moves on you have to employ another #1 driver because you don't have someone capable of stepping up to that position.

So looking at the driver lineup who was treated by McLaren as the number one in these pairngs?

1980- John Watson, Alain Prost
1981- John Watson, Andrea de Cesaris
1982- John Watson, Niki Lauda
1983- John Watson, Niki Lauda
1984- Niki Lauda, Alain Prost
1985- Alain Prost, Niki Lauda, John Watson
1986- Alain Prost, Keke Rosberg
1987- Alain Prost, Stefan Johansson
1988- Alain Prost, Ayrton Senna
1989- Alain Prost, Ayrton Senna
1990- Ayrton Senna, Gerhard Berger
1991- Ayrton Senna, Gerhard Berger
1992- Ayrton Senna, Gerhard Berger
1993- Ayrton Senna, Michael Andretti, Mika Hakkinen
1994- Mika Hakkinen, Martin Brundle, Philippe Alliot
1995- Nigel Mansell, Mika Hakkinen, Mark Blundell, Jan Magnussen
1996- Mika Hakkinen, David Coulthard
1997- Mika Hakkinen, David Coulthard
1998- Mika Hakkinen, David Coulthard
1999- Mika Hakkinen, David Coulthard
2000- Mika Hakkinen, David Coulthard
2001- Mika Hakkinen, David Coulthard (Alex Wurz)
2002- David Coulthard, Kimi Raikkonen, (Alex Wurz)
2003- David Coulthard, Kimi Raikkonen, (Alex Wurz, Pedro de la Rosa)
2004- David Coulthard, Kimi Raikkonen, (Alex Wurz, Pedro de la Rosa)
2005- Kimi Raikkonen, Juan Pablo Montoya, (Alex Wurz, Pedro de la Rosa)
2006- Kimi Raikkonen, Juan Pablo Montoya, (Pedro de la Rosa)
2007- Fernando Alonso, Lewis Hamilton
2008- Lewis Hamilton, Heikki Kovalainen



Sure there are risks when you get two talented drivers that can create a lot of internal political issues, like Senna/Prost and Alonso/Hamilton, but overall the results for the team are better.

Alonso made the mistake of assuming he would be the #1 driver when paired with a unknown rookie, and had a hissy fit when he discovered that wasn't the case. If it had been then Hamilton's talent may have never been realised and he may well have gone to another team, but because both drivers got equal treatment McLaren now have locked in the most taleneted driver to appear on the F1 scene in a long time.
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Postby thornz » Wed Nov 05, 2008 3:48 pm

fivebob wrote:
thornz wrote:Okay I'll agree in part with taht in that they dont publically state they have a number one, but you would have to be living under a rock to believe that to be the absolute truth.

No you wouldn't, but you would have to understand the history of McLaren and it's attitude to getting the best performance out of it's drivers. They may have a driver pairing where one driver is more talented that the other, but they treat them equally with respect to the resources they are given. Until one driver is in a postion that his team mate cannot win the championship, there are no "team orders"

If you have a #1 & #2 driver then the #2 driver is never going to perform to their best, and you will never realise the investment you make in that driver. When you #1 driver moves on you have to employ another #1 driver because you don't have someone capable of stepping up to that position.

So looking at the driver lineup who was treated by McLaren as the number one in these pairngs?

1980- John Watson, Alain Prost
1981- John Watson, Andrea de Cesaris
1982- John Watson, Niki Lauda
1983- John Watson, Niki Lauda
1984- Niki Lauda, Alain Prost
1985- Alain Prost, Niki Lauda, John Watson
1986- Alain Prost, Keke Rosberg
1987- Alain Prost, Stefan Johansson
1988- Alain Prost, Ayrton Senna
1989- Alain Prost, Ayrton Senna
1990- Ayrton Senna, Gerhard Berger
1991- Ayrton Senna, Gerhard Berger
1992- Ayrton Senna, Gerhard Berger
1993- Ayrton Senna, Michael Andretti, Mika Hakkinen
1994- Mika Hakkinen, Martin Brundle, Philippe Alliot
1995- Nigel Mansell, Mika Hakkinen, Mark Blundell, Jan Magnussen
1996- Mika Hakkinen, David Coulthard
1997- Mika Hakkinen, David Coulthard
1998- Mika Hakkinen, David Coulthard
1999- Mika Hakkinen, David Coulthard
2000- Mika Hakkinen, David Coulthard
2001- Mika Hakkinen, David Coulthard (Alex Wurz)
2002- David Coulthard, Kimi Raikkonen, (Alex Wurz)
2003- David Coulthard, Kimi Raikkonen, (Alex Wurz, Pedro de la Rosa)
2004- David Coulthard, Kimi Raikkonen, (Alex Wurz, Pedro de la Rosa)
2005- Kimi Raikkonen, Juan Pablo Montoya, (Alex Wurz, Pedro de la Rosa)
2006- Kimi Raikkonen, Juan Pablo Montoya, (Pedro de la Rosa)
2007- Fernando Alonso, Lewis Hamilton
2008- Lewis Hamilton, Heikki Kovalainen



Sure there are risks when you get two talented drivers that can create a lot of internal political issues, like Senna/Prost and Alonso/Hamilton, but overall the results for the team are better.

Alonso made the mistake of assuming he would be the #1 driver when paired with a unknown rookie, and had a hissy fit when he discovered that wasn't the case. If it had been then Hamilton's talent may have never been realised and he may well have gone to another team, but because both drivers got equal treatment McLaren now have locked in the most taleneted driver to appear on the F1 scene in a long time.


Mika Hakkinen, him and ron dennis were prety much like father son after Mika's big accident in Adelaide, shown such as in Jerez 97, when Coulthard was leading, and was asked to move over to let hakkinen take his first Gp win. And then Hamilton when paired with Alonso. When the team boss (Ron Dennis) makes comments like "we beat him" referring to Hamilton beating Alonso certainly makes you wonder. Anyway, neither of us are gonna budge on this issue, could argue this forever, so might as well agree to disagree.
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Postby JustinSpiderholden » Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:18 pm

fivebob wrote:
thornz wrote:Okay I'll agree in part with taht in that they dont publically state they have a number one, but you would have to be living under a rock to believe that to be the absolute truth.

No you wouldn't, but you would have to understand the history of McLaren and it's attitude to getting the best performance out of it's drivers. They may have a driver pairing where one driver is more talented that the other, but they treat them equally with respect to the resources they are given. Until one driver is in a postion that his team mate cannot win the championship, there are no "team orders"

If you have a #1 & #2 driver then the #2 driver is never going to perform to their best, and you will never realise the investment you make in that driver. When you #1 driver moves on you have to employ another #1 driver because you don't have someone capable of stepping up to that position.

So looking at the driver lineup who was treated by McLaren as the number one in these pairngs?

1980- John Watson, Alain Prost
1981- John Watson, Andrea de Cesaris
1982- John Watson, Niki Lauda
1983- John Watson, Niki Lauda
1984- Niki Lauda, Alain Prost
1985- Alain Prost, Niki Lauda, John Watson
1986- Alain Prost, Keke Rosberg
1987- Alain Prost, Stefan Johansson
1988- Alain Prost, Ayrton Senna
1989- Alain Prost, Ayrton Senna
1990- Ayrton Senna, Gerhard Berger
1991- Ayrton Senna, Gerhard Berger
1992- Ayrton Senna, Gerhard Berger
1993- Ayrton Senna, Michael Andretti, Mika Hakkinen
1994- Mika Hakkinen, Martin Brundle, Philippe Alliot
1995- Nigel Mansell, Mika Hakkinen, Mark Blundell, Jan Magnussen
1996- Mika Hakkinen, David Coulthard
1997- Mika Hakkinen, David Coulthard
1998- Mika Hakkinen, David Coulthard
1999- Mika Hakkinen, David Coulthard
2000- Mika Hakkinen, David Coulthard
2001- Mika Hakkinen, David Coulthard (Alex Wurz)
2002- David Coulthard, Kimi Raikkonen, (Alex Wurz)
2003- David Coulthard, Kimi Raikkonen, (Alex Wurz, Pedro de la Rosa)
2004- David Coulthard, Kimi Raikkonen, (Alex Wurz, Pedro de la Rosa)
2005- Kimi Raikkonen, Juan Pablo Montoya, (Alex Wurz, Pedro de la Rosa)
2006- Kimi Raikkonen, Juan Pablo Montoya, (Pedro de la Rosa)
2007- Fernando Alonso, Lewis Hamilton
2008- Lewis Hamilton, Heikki Kovalainen



Sure there are risks when you get two talented drivers that can create a lot of internal political issues, like Senna/Prost and Alonso/Hamilton, but overall the results for the team are better.

Alonso made the mistake of assuming he would be the #1 driver when paired with a unknown rookie, and had a hissy fit when he discovered that wasn't the case. If it had been then Hamilton's talent may have never been realised and he may well have gone to another team, but because both drivers got equal treatment McLaren now have locked in the most taleneted driver to appear on the F1 scene in a long time.


I's say wrong Hamilton is not the greatest talent, he was jsut blessed with a great car

Talent is Sebatian Vettel as he makes a lesser car perform to a higher level
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Postby fivebob » Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:52 pm

thornz wrote:Mika Hakkinen, him and ron dennis were prety much like father son after Mika's big accident in Adelaide, shown such as in Jerez 97, when Coulthard was leading, and was asked to move over to let hakkinen take his first Gp win.

I take it you are referring to Melbourne in '98. In which case you are wrong, after getting a 1-2 in Qualifying there was an agreement between the two drivers that the one leading after the first corner would be the one to win the race, if they were in a position to do so without endangering a McLaren 1-2.

Also if you look at the results for the years they were paired together before that, 1996- 5th Hakkinen, 31 pts; 7th, Coulthard, 18pts, 1997- 3rd, Coulthard, 36 pts; 6th, Hakkinen, 27 pts. If Hakkinen was the #1 then why didn't he place higher in both years, especially since he beat Coulthard the first year.

And then Hamilton when paired with Alonso. When the team boss (Ron Dennis) makes comments like "we beat him" referring to Hamilton beating Alonso certainly makes you wonder.

Got a reference for that quote? Or even which GP it was made at?

Let's see... Drivers on the same points in the final standings, how does that equate to a Hamilton being #1. If that was the case then why didn't Ron just stand Alonso down after he did the dirty on the team?

So out of all those driver pairings you can only find two (IMHO very dubious) possible times where the team might have favoured one driver over another.... seems to prove the case that McLaren doesn't run a #1/#2 driver system doesn't it?
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Postby fivebob » Wed Nov 05, 2008 7:12 pm

JustinSpiderholden wrote:I's say wrong Hamilton is not the greatest talent, he was jsut blessed with a great car

Talent is Sebatian Vettel as he makes a lesser car perform to a higher level

Nope, nope talent isn't just doing well in one wet or two races, it's finishing on the podium in your first nine races, winning two of them, out qualifing your double world champion team mate 10-7 in your rookie year ;)
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Postby 2jayzgte » Wed Nov 05, 2008 7:12 pm

So according to Mclaren policy with Lewis Hamilton being the Word Champion he is not the number 1 at Mclaren that does'nt sound right to me surely if you have the World Champion in your team he has surely got to be the number 1,outside of the Alonso/Hamilton debacle.
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Postby thornz » Wed Nov 05, 2008 7:16 pm

Well I would have thought seeing as you are a McLaren know it all, you would remember this? And it wasnt Melbourne, it was Jerez as I claimed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RMX9NiBZd0

And the quote
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/ ... 617378.ece

But we weren’t at all fazed about Kimi [Raikkonen, of Ferrari]. We weren’t racing Kimi, we were basically racing Fernando.

If that doesnt suggest that Hamilton was the favoured driver, I dont kn0ow what is.

Hamilton is the number one driver at McLaren, surely you are not so blind as to see that, McLaren is pretty much team Lewis. McLaren have sponsered the kid since he was in go karts, and been brought up into Mclaren, to say he is not the number is just bulls**t, even Heikki has been making mumblings about that.

http://www.asiaone.com/Motoring/Motorwo ... 96000.html

And yes, out of all those driver pairings, They are only ones I can find, I have only been watching since the mid nineties, so am only going on what I know and have seen in the past 13 years of F1.

Look, I cant be arsed arguing this anymore, you have your opinion, I have mine, its clear we are not going to agree.
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Postby fivebob » Wed Nov 05, 2008 7:21 pm

2jayzgte wrote:So according to Mclaren policy with Lewis Hamilton being the Word Champion he is not the number 1 at Mclaren that does'nt sound right to me surely if you have the World Champion in your team he has surely got to be the number 1,outside of the Alonso/Hamilton debacle.

Nope, it wasn't the case with any of their champions in the past and I'm sure it isn't the case with Hamilton. The philosphy at McLaren is that both drivers are treated equally until one does not have a chance to win the championship. However unless Kovalainen shows some more talent (even in a great car) Hamilton will likely get the benefit of "team orders" later in the championship.
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Postby Zitchu » Wed Nov 05, 2008 7:22 pm

Ok with all this crap about favoured drivers they way I understood it all is that no there aren't favoured drivers as such and they aren't aloud to give team orders. It up to the team mate to give way to the other at their own discretion.
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Postby 2jayzgte » Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:16 pm

fivebob wrote:
2jayzgte wrote:So according to Mclaren policy with Lewis Hamilton being the Word Champion he is not the number 1 at Mclaren that does'nt sound right to me surely if you have the World Champion in your team he has surely got to be the number 1,outside of the Alonso/Hamilton debacle.

Nope, it wasn't the case with any of their champions in the past and I'm sure it isn't the case with Hamilton. The philosphy at McLaren is that both drivers are treated equally until one does not have a chance to win the championship. However unless Kovalainen shows some more talent (even in a great car) Hamilton will likely get the benefit of "team orders" later in the championship.


I'm thinking in certain situations in the past this may have been the case but if we all read between the lines here it is clear to me and the rest of the planet that Hamilton clearly is the number one and I believe after the Alonso/Hamilton mess they don't want to travel down that road again hence why I have come to this conclusion.
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Postby Mr Revhead » Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:33 pm

thornz wrote:http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/ ... 617378.ece

But we weren’t at all fazed about Kimi [Raikkonen, of Ferrari]. We weren’t racing Kimi, we were basically racing Fernando.

If that doesnt suggest that Hamilton was the favoured driver, I dont kn0ow what is.


:? that doesnt prove a thing....
hamilton may have been the favourite of some individuals in the mclaren team, but i doubt very much that any of them would do anything to hurt alonsos races. thats just dumb.

those of you claiming hamilton isnt great coz he has the best car... and schumi is the greatest... seems to me the ferrari was the best car a lot of the time....
including when schumi was driving, in fact often in the mid schumi era the ferrari was the best car by far, and he always had team mates who were definite number twos.... so maybe he wasnt so great after all? best car by far, and subservient team mates....

why would a team like mclaren have a number one and a number two?
it makes no sense at all, they have the resources to run two cars at the same level, so why handicap yourself to one driver? what you do is field two of the best drivers you can, when one is in a clearly better position than the other, the other drivers duty to the team (they are after all working FOR the team) is to do whats best for the team.

and further back theres suggestions glock caned it in favour of hamilton, if you watch the replays you can see he's barely able to keep the car on the track, so i dont thik he was thinking "i must let hamilton through"
besides, he wouldn thave had any idea what was happening on that side of things

and finally on the subject of the older eras... my fav old time driver? jackie stewart.
or what about lauda? my first memorys of F1 were the lauda/prost mclaren years. not in a mclaren? go home....
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Postby Adamal » Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:43 pm

I think we could all argue here and try to prove points until we're all blue in the face, but at the end of the day, changing a persons opinion on something is damn well one of the hardest things to do.
Motorsport is like sex. You could take it to track and have a long, enjoyable session, or you could take it to the strip and get it over with in less than 20 seconds.
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Postby TRD Man » Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:23 am

fivebob wrote:Greatness is not always about what you achieve, but also how you achieve it.
Absolutely, which is the moral of the Ronnie Peterson story.
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