Auckland city brought to a standstill

[mr30%jr]

sh1t happens yo, when sh1t like this happens people go down. sadly it wasnt the crim

dont see the point in milling over and over about who shot and whos who because when it comes down to sh1t like that training aint gunna do sh1t.

[Heylin]

on the other hand it sounds like someone else is trying to blow their own trumpet a bit to much

What can I say, im pretty s**t hot

[Heylin]

From sutff.co.nz news article.

AOS members are all volunteers, who must qualify at a national selection and induction course. Members then train in their districts for one day every month, plus have a three-day intensive refresher course each year.

OK

1) Pistol club members are required to shoot at least 12 times per year.

2) Your average pistol club member shoots more than 12 times per year and partakes in events that involve speed, accuracy, shooting on the move, speed loading etc etc etc

3) AOS of Pistol Club members do not get shot at with live rounds while training \ competing so dont give me "you try aim while been shot at BS". Most AOS memebers have never been in a shootout situation.

So by my reckoning, your average pistol club member has at least the same level of firearms training as an AOS, and at least 1/2 of the tactical knowledge, only difference being the shape of the targets that get shot.

Events at the pistol club include

- shooting from cover (barricade)
- mover (enagaging moving targets at various ranges upto 15m
- service (FBI style training shot at various distances and positions)
- 25M percision (accuracy training)
- speed steel (shooting 10" round plates at distances upto 20m
- action shooting (shooting on the move, speed, accuracy)

All of these involve speed, accuracy, technique.

Im not saying that Pistol club members should be allowed to put their hand up, what Im saying is would expect in a country of 4 million people our major cities would have full time AOS who train every week so they are the best of the best.

Its a bit of a joke when a large proportion of the public are more trained \ ready for combat than the police force combined.

[fivebob]

Hmm, I think you forgot something in that rant.

Its a bit of a joke when,in my biased opinion, a large proportion of the public are more trained \ ready for combat than the police force combined.

FWIW I think you opinion is wrong, and that the majority of AOS officers are far more highly trained and competent at doing there jobs than your criticism implies.

[xsspeed]

I think it also makes a bit of a difference when you are being shot at

[Jdawg]

The AOS just don't sit around doing nothing in between headlines.
When I used to have a gang living in the industrail building next door the AOS used to show up at least once a month to help with arrests and search warrants. These guys never knew when or where the guns were, only that the gang members inside had weapons and knew how to use them and they would have to be ready and setup for the whole Police operation.

[ihavelift]

I think this argument's pointless.

There's no way of proving anybody's opinion so why bother arguing a moot point?

[touge rolla]

There's no way of proving anybody's opinion so why bother arguing a moot point?

Yeah there is: Get your gunn, head down to your local pistol club and take pot shots at the other members while they try to hit a moving target.

[RomanV]

Wow, a pistol club sounds sweet.

/googles

[Heylin]

Anyone interested in pistol shooting, im quite happy to organise a day at the range here in Hamilton.

Cost $30

Depending how many people are keen, would be 2 hours, and you can try a few different guns.

Its really a fun sport.

[Heylin]

I think it also makes a bit of a difference when you are being shot at

Honestly unless these AOS guys have served in Afghanistan or Iraq in the last decade I doubt very few of them have actually experienced being shot at, and even if they have it wouldnt have been enough to make them any more calm or collected than an experienced civilian shooter in the same situation.

If the news is anything to go by, incidents that actually have shots fired are few and far.

I may be biased, but having contact with cops, competition shooters, regular shooters, us special forces and the likes, I reckon I have a good knowledge base to draw some reasonable assumptions about our AOS guys.

[xsspeed]

I was more meaning they would be more likely to miss and panic when being shot at. Could be the reason why the kid got killed who knows.

Problem is I don't think you could truely say you could do a better job based on shooting at the range, as targets don't shoot back.

I go hunting quite a bit and would say I am a pretty good shot, but animals don't shoot back either, but I dont think I could do a better job than them given the circumstances.

[Heylin]

I was more meaning they would be more likely to miss and panic when being shot at. Could be the reason why the kid got killed who knows.

If thats the case, we need to get different people on the AOS, part of the job is being shot at and they should be able to perform under those situations.

AOS should be up there with SWAT, SAS, Special Forces etc,

[touge rolla]

^agree but here in lil ol New Zealand our police (thankfully) don't get to experience getting shot at all that often. So training them to be good at getting shot at can be difficult.
And on that note neither do our soldiers (except the SAS but no-one knows what they get up to).

edit: Let us not also forget there have been numerous occasions where our police haven't missed and have killed armed offenders. This however seems to get them into even more trouble with the public.

[Lurkin]

jeepers are we recruiting for the militia?

"...3) AOS of Pistol Club members do not get shot at with live rounds while training \ competing so dont give me "you try aim while been shot at BS". Most AOS memebers have never been in a shootout situation. "

do you have any proof of this or is this broad speculation/ guesstimation? after all their job in its nature suggests they would be first to a scene... with armed offenders....

at the end of the day, regardless of how talented the public are at being shot at/ shooting at the same time -->

we still choose to employ other people to do it for us!

Given this is the first case (could be wrong, thought I saw this in the paper) of its nature...

Given how many times police have presented fire arms in a public situation, unnoticed that it could have had a far worse outcome had they not intervened......

this appears to me of a very very low proability of occurance rather than what you would expect from a bunch of blue uniformed incompetents playing solider as you claim?

This is entirely based on specualtion and is possibly completely wrong =-

show the facts, links, referances to prove what you are saying.

after all, you are discreditting supposed professionals/ experts...

[Mr.Phreak]

If thats the case, we need to get different people on the AOS, part of the job is being shot at and they should be able to perform under those situations.

AOS should be up there with SWAT, SAS, Special Forces etc,

I take it you're aware of how much money it takes to keep a dedicated SWAT team in operation??

[Heylin]

I take it you're aware of how much money it takes to keep a dedicated SWAT team in operation??

Most likely quite a bit.

$80,000 salary X 8 members = $640,000 per year per major centre. Ammunition for training, equipment etc.

Wouldnt get much change from about $800,000 per major centre.

Money would be better spent locking offenders up for life so they dont reoffend.

[pjay]

Yeah.. i just googled it instead ay

The municipal costs of SWAT teams can vary tremendously. In a large urban area, the SWAT team is usually a dedicated, 24/7 unit with as many as 60 officers. Costs for equipment, training and personnel can run to seven figures. Smaller cities can get by with a 10-person team that carries out regular police functions, but can respond as a SWAT team when the need arises. This can cost somewhere around $100,000 per year or more, a significant amount for a small town. Start-up costs can be even greater.

[fivebob]

Wouldnt get much change from about $800,000 per major centre.

Try adding a zero to that figure and you might be closer to the mark.

To cover get 24/7 cover for somewhere like Auckland you'd need at least 30-40 members not eight. Plus support staff, equipment maintenance and you'd be taking those staff from their current duties, so you'd need to budget for replacing them as well.

You estimate of 80k/per staff member shows how little you know about the costs of employing people, especially in specilaised jobs like SWAT. Salary is only half the cost, there's training, accomodation, administrative overheads, etc, etc that all add to the cost of staff. You might be closer to the mark if you said $150k/member though I'd guess it might be closer to $200k.

Regardless of all of this, you seem to have the view that the AOS's job is to shoot people, when in fact there job is the exact opposite. Shooting is a last resort when all else has failed.

In the last 50yrs fewer that 25 people have been shot and killed by police and about the same number of police have been killed in the line of duty. The vast majority of armed police officers have never shot at anyone and hopefully they never will. I would hate to see NZ get to the same state as Australia where you get people shot when the police few the least bit threatened

[pjay]

I remember the AOS closed in on a next door neighbour when i was a little kid. They had rubber bullets. He told me so