GM looks to be dead in the water.

[2jayzgte]

I say no bailout let them sink they got themselves into this mess so they should have to get themselves out

Although I pretty much agree with you on this, economically, for their country, they cannot afford to lose the company because of the jobs it generates.

From what I have read, the yanky govt are still looking at giving them the $30b they say "they need at a minimum", and may still close much of what they do.

Much of country type economics is about softening the blow of sudden shock.
You don't want to suddenly have ~250,000 people unemployed overnight, it is better to have them slowly go out of business so that the rest of the economy can absorb it somewhat(think evolution over millions of years instead of a nuclear bomb mutation, and adjust time scales).

Personally I'd like to see one of the "big three" go, and then to see them help the remaining two... it should leave the remaining two in a much better position to fight it out if there is less competition.

F**K Me go figure that 2 American cars at the top of the production car lap record at the Nurburgring.......

It is quite impressive.[/quote

Alot of there problems are there own fault sometimes to go foward you have to go back and now with the U.S economy in the shite one of those big 3 have got to go out of the 3 i think Ford are the least worst off so I think they'll be alright.I think its quite clear that there is no need to have 3 of those big companies so i reckon one has to go and we can sit here and go on about the implications of this but why ohh why would you bail out these people when they have been making bad decisions and making crap cars for years and now there paying the consequences.All of a sudden these big CEO's turn up to congress meetings in there private jets and multi-million dollar salaries asking for money like there paupers please I'd flush them down the toilet and start again......

[Adydas]

its a fair few jobs to lose aint it 'Total # of employees 252,000'

[Bling]

From my calculations.... instead of giving the 30b to the companies each employee could receive like 100k+

Thats a LOT of money....

[/side thought]

[sergei]

Giving money to company while maintaining the head is not a good idea, if government gives money they better fire the top as the top caused the company to be in the situation where it is right now, instead the top will use the bail out money to give themselves the bonuses that they don't deserve.

[Mr Revhead]

um ppl, listen......
it was the lack of finance that caused this issue...
not customers not wanting to buy their product....

yeah sure some had been losing sales and market share to jap brands (toyota and honda) and changes needed to be made, and were, about 5 years ago ford were close to bankrupt.. but they sorted it out.
so you can all stop saying this was caused by the american public not wanting to buy fords, chryslers or chevs! dont forget the jap brands in the states are in the poo as well, just not as deep

[Lith]

Of course this kind of thing can't help:
http://outfoxingkarlrove.wordpress.com/2008/11/20/auto-execs-fly-corporate-jets-to-dc-tin-cups-in-hand/

If the execs lived like "normal" execs who live the scum life and only earn 7 figure incomes and fly first class it could surely help.

[cogent]

um ppl, listen......
it was the lack of finance that caused this issue...
not customers not wanting to buy their product....

yeah sure some had been losing sales and market share to jap brands (toyota and honda) and changes needed to be made, and were, about 5 years ago ford were close to bankrupt.. but they sorted it out.
so you can all stop saying this was caused by the american public not wanting to buy fords, chryslers or chevs! dont forget the jap brands in the states are in the poo as well, just not as deep

The difference between Toyota, Honda, Nissan and gm, ford and chrysler is that the first 3 are working with reduced revenue, whereas the last 3 are working at a loss. The Japanese guys are still making money, just not as much as they forecast.

Its pretty crazy, like 2jzgte said - the bailouts are not to get these companys up and running again, its too late for that now. Its more about damage control for when they do go under. Pretty much all of Detroits economy would disappear overnight - for example.

[Mr Revhead]

making money are they? you sure about that?

anyway the point im trying to make, is its NOT the product they are making that caused this, its "these tough economic times"
as i mentioned before yes, they had some issues with product range, but they are/were on the way to fixing that. the american public still wanted american cars. yeah they werent exactly sitting pretty before the crash, but if that didnt happen they would be ok i reckon.
if they can get the unions to stop blackmailing them and can reduce the wages and benifits they are forced to give then they can be viable. but if they cant get that to happen, then they are fuct i think.

the two key factors i believe are:
"credit crunch" leading to no financing available for buyers. and to ppl losing jobs etc leading to less customers.

over paid workers with silly benifits that cost waaaay too much

[barryogen]

if they can get the unions to stop blackmailing them and can reduce the wages and benifits they are forced to give then they can be viable. but if they cant get that to happen, then they are fuct i think.

you would think that when they get to the point of "you either cut back on wages/benefits, or lose your job" that they'd choose the former... so far they have not indicated that it would be acceptible.

[Alex B]

Thats fairly typical union BS though. The end of they day when they have all lost their jobs the union will just say "oh well, we tried"

[2jayzgte]

For motor companies surely the important thing is moving cars now I look at Ford who own Jaguar for example in NZ 2005 they sold 1 Jaguar in the month of December 1 car for crying out loud my point here is whose the Genius at FORD who wanted a piece of Jaguar that to me is just a boat anchor around your neck just choking you.

Again GM and Holden a friend of mine who used to run the WGTN HSV club owned the new hsv when it first went to the a 6.0 litre told me after 5000 ks they had a Nz/Aus wide recall on these cars I can't recall the problem but it was engine related see again you pay 125 K for rubbish.

Just 2 examples of why GM and Ford are in so much sh*te.

Don't waste your money on them flush them and start again.

[Mr Revhead]

i think you will find that jaguar is doing ok for itself, and wasnt too bad when ford sold it....

that recall i was either the leaky rear mains, faulty oil pumps, or faulty steering racks! nice cars

[cogent]

Didn't 350z's have a similar issue with leaking rear seals causing a recall?
What about the pre-cats on the 1zzge in the MR-S and Celica?

[Jdawg]

Feb sales figures: GM 58% down, Ford and Chrysler were around 50% down. The Japanese makes all around 40% down in sales.

When I bought my Ls1 way back they had problems with No. 1 cylinder being bored out to big. But you had to walk in with your lawyer before they would even discuss it. The poor service I got from Holden as a new car buyer has meant I now have a garage full of Japa's

[Audi]

Basically the American government has to choose, continue to pay large sums of money to keep GM afloat untill it finally turns around, probably about 100 billion US and 2011. Or let it fail and save a fortune, while increasing efficiency in the car industry in the US as a whole (labour will become cheaper due to large numbers of trained workers, along with parts etc.). Of course since failure could put up to 1 million people out of a job (in the very worst case) and thats 1 million who definitely won't vote for you, they'll just keep paying and everyone will lose.

[Bling]

1 million out of 300(?) million people isn't many though

[frost]

1 million out of 300(?) million people isn't many though

one million people who are most likely in union's will deff be voters, and in swing states in America where 100 votes can make a C student become the president. that's a lot of votes you don't want to miss out on,

[rolla_fxgt]

one million people who are most likely in union's will deff be voters, and in swing states in America where 100 votes can make a C student become the president. that's a lot of votes you don't want to miss out on,

Yeah but it's highly unlikely that union members are going to vote for the Republicans is it, its actually a gift horse for Obama if he had half a brain.
At the worst all those laid off just won't vote next time.

And what's wrong with being a C student? Some of the smartest and most successful business people have only C passes, or have dropped out of Uni's, one slightly retarded president isn't indicative of all C students.

I think GM should be made to shut down maybe a third of its plants, which the govt buys at a reasonable rate, giving GM reduced capacity, and some cash reserves, and the US govt car plants it can use to make its own military vehicles, or sell/lease the plants to automakers as they need more capacity, making a small profit on the deal, and reducing the "big three" to the size they really should be anyway

[frost]

im not sure who they would vote for i was just saying you'd not want to piss them off.
nothing wrong with most C students, just strange to see a country vote so blindly for a retard over a well educated well spoken candidate like gore, im not a fan of gore but anyone is better then bush, i thought they would of seen that the second time round,

yeah i agree with govt buying half the company, and firing the heads,

but they cant. there own trade rules wont permit it, US govt cant get involved in corporate company's that may favor one over another. they can only intervene if a takeover is seen as unfair to other competitors.