3s gearbox questions, Celica/MR2 experts please!

[molex]

howdy folks

Would anybody be able to confirm that the mount locations are common between the NA and turbo boxes from Celica's/MR2's? I'm talking (I believe) about S53 vs E153 respectively. I know people routinely swap to a 3sgte along with the turbo box, I just need to know if the mounts are a concern.

Next question is what are the differences between the various gearboxes? Is a turbo box significantly stronger than the NA one or is the difference primarily in the driveshafts/CV's? For my application i'm likely to end up with custom shafts

Bit of a longshot but it would also be helpful if somebody could measure the total length of a 3s+box that would be fantastically helpful.



End of box to the crank pulley is what I'm after

Any assistance is much appreciated

[MR2BOY23]

The E153 is stronger than the Non Turbo Gearbox. Turbo Driveshafts are bigger . Mounts will need to be modified

[molex]

Any more specific info than 'they're stronger"

I know the consensus is they must be stronger, I really want to know why and if I need to bother sourcing one

Car will be light + have uprated shafts/CV's, it's the gearbox internals I'm really curious about

[Mr Revhead]

they are a different series of gearbox, S vs E series
as to the actual true strength of an S box, i do not know.

I believe the mounting points are the same between the two types (as in where they mount on the car) but someone else will know for sure.

What is it exactly you are doing? that will help with accurate answers

[molex]

Since I posted this I've been (largely unsuccessfully) looking for some better info on the actual strength differences, thus far all I've found is people telling other people to run the turbo box without actually having tried the NA...

What would be really nice is if the mounts are confirmed as compatible I can do much of my mockup with a broken S53 rather than spending anything just yet.

The plan? Big engine in a small car.. Have yet to decide on exactly which motor, the candidates are 3vz, 1mz and 2gr all of which bolt up to S/E series boxes. More reading required on power potential/weight...

[iOnic]

I'd look more into the gearing than the actual strength. The S53 ratios were chosen with the high revving 3SGE in mind - The E153 has more suitable ratios for use with a V6 IMO.....The E153 also comes with an LSD (later examples) where the S53 doesn't and aftermarket options are virtually non existent (they do exist but good luck finding one). If you still need to know the width of engine + box I'll get under the car tomorrow and measure it.

[molex]

I'd look more into the gearing than the actual strength. The S53 ratios were chosen with the high revving 3SGE in mind - The E153 has more suitable ratios for use with a V6 IMO.....The E153 also comes with an LSD (later examples) where the S53 doesn't and aftermarket options are virtually non existent (they do exist but good luck finding one). If you still need to know the width of engine + box I'll get under the car tomorrow and measure it.

Very good point with regards to the LSD issue, though I seem to recall reading this evening that the TRD LSD's for the C series are the same as the S? From memory the guy that posted it was quite knowledgeable too.

Would really appreciate a measurement, would make visualizing the mount fab much easier.

[Mr Revhead]

http://trdparts.jp/english/parts_lsd_mechanical.html

don't think they are
its more likely they take the same repair kit, but i can't see any cross over's in LSD's

[fivebob]

I'd look more into the gearing than the actual strength. The S53 ratios were chosen with the high revving 3SGE in mind - The E153 has more suitable ratios for use with a V6 IMO......

Not really, that's a bit of a myth.

When you take the final drive into account the S53 has taller 1st (+6%), 2nd (+3%) and 3rd(+3%) gears, and marginally shorter (-3%) 4th & 5th gears.

1st-2nd is closer on the S53 as is 3rd-4th, 2nd-3rd is wider and 4th-5th is the same.

So I don't think ratios are going to make that much difference on a street driven vehicle.

[molex]

The car is primarily going to be a 1/4 mile thrasher. No huge budgets here, intention is to just about everything myself... the weight distribution with an iron block 3vz in a hatch doesn't really lend itself to corners

After some more reading it looks confirmed, after swapping the diff bearings an LSD out of a C56 from a ZZW30 drops straight into an S series box.

http://forums.twobrutal.com/showthread.php?t=11589

Opens up a few more possibilities. Also come across a few stories of people successfully running the S53 along side a V6 or 3S-GTE without a failure. Presumably the diff would be the weak point going from my prior experience with C52/C56's.

Ratio comparison:

E153

S53


These graphs are running relatively small rubber.

I suspect there are actually a number of different final drives available in the S53's. I've found mention of 3.625, 3.944 (what I graphed) and 4.176 in various places.

According to these figures fivebob is quite correct, 1/2/3 are actually a smidge longer which certainly appeals. Ideally I would end up with the 3.625 final drive, that would mean at 7krpm in 4th I would be at 125mph. Long term anything less than that will mean I'm shifting into 5th or sitting on the limiter for a period at the end of the track. Running an E153 with the 3.944 final drive (which are interchangeable) would also achieve the same goal.

[Bazda]

I would say the s series boxes have gears sets of similar size to the C series boxes. Which makes them fairly weak... (I might be wrong).

The e series has nice large thick gears which would be something like 30-40% wider than c series gears.

If your going to use it for 1/4 mile and use some sticky rubber I would really suggest using the E series box.

[Mr Revhead]

you know, I have never heard of anyone (except B1NZ but he doesnt count) breaking a C series gear set, and the only diff breakages I know of where in the 6 speed which has a narrower crown wheel. However the newer generation C box seems to have an appetite for eating bearings

Hmmm seems toyota made some changes to the C box as used in the MR-S and ZZE12#'s as they use the S series LSD.

[AceSniper]

lsd from the 2zzge c series box is the same as the s series, as for earlier c series box's I don't think they will change over

[RomanV]

where the S53 doesn't and aftermarket options are virtually non existent

Superstrut currens and celicas have factory torsen LSD...

Plenty of em around!

[iOnic]

Totally forgot they used the same gearbox I was thinking of MR2's - my mistake.

Didn't get a chance to measure the motor......feel kinda bad about it now haha...

EDIT: Just measured across the top from passengers side gearbox mount to drivers side engine mount and it's ~97cm give or take a coupla cm. Gen 2 3SGTE + Gen 3 E153

[molex]

Cheers for the measurement and thanks to barry, nice to hear from somebody who has likely looked inside both and run plenty of power.

I'll do a bit more reading and hopefully come up with a combination that will allow me to swap between and E and S box without having to mess with shafts or mounts, will be interesting to see just how much abuse one of the 'weaker' gearboxes can take as I still can't find a verified instance of one letting go...

Presumably if you're looking for an aftermarket LSD purchasing one intended for a zzw30 along with some S bearings should give you what you need, I'm sure there's quite a bit of aftermarket support for them over in the states/europe.

I'll have to go pull the motor out of my wrecked shell and take some measurements

[Mr Revhead]

you could just see about getting the correct TRD one

[TRD Man]

Perhaps if you mentioned what you are planning putting this in someone may be able offer more advice.
The overall measurement may tell you whether the gear fits in the hole but not whether it will centre easily.

[molex]

At this point I'm not 100% sure. Initial plan was a poverty spec EP80 as I have starlet parts coming out of my ears, but potentially a Corolla chassis might be a better move.

Prior to engine swapping an EP80 with some lightening measures taken should be around the 650-660kg mark with around a 65% front bias. Some more reading required to work out just how much weight a V6 will add over the front axle. The 1mz/2gr are significantly lighter than the 3vz, approximately 45-50kg less due to all aluminium construction. Disadvantages are added cost, added complexity (coil on plug ignition, distributor-less, drive by wire in the case of the 2gr)

At this point I'm leaning towards a 3vz due to availability, expense, strength of the bottom end and lower compression than the other options. Stage one would be running NA, possibly on a pared down factory loom/ECU if one is available to evaluate the mounting/drive train and any potential problems. Stage 2 is a large single turbo + standalone management and some more extreme body modification/weight reduction/strengthening. 3vz has been proven capable of ~350whp on a standard bottom end, aftermarket pistons/rods are available if it ever gets that serious.

I know what I'm aiming to do is achievable

Here's one fella with a 3s-gte powered EP82



And another slightly more mad example

[®usty]

the E seires is stronger then a S series, and E series come standard with an LSD. depending on what motor you use and what for maybe a S54 or E54?. what car are you going to what engine into?

The car is primarily going to be a 1/4 mile thrasher. No huge budgets here, intention is to just about everything myself... the weight distribution with an iron block 3vz in a hatch doesn't really lend itself to corners

ok

check out 6gc.net as some of those guys on their regularly swap the E153 gearboxes over for FWD in there celicas

those graphs look good where did you get them from?