Fuels for Motorsport

[matt dunn]

So Motorsport NZ are looking at getting rid of avgas etc etc
at some stage in the future, and I have all sorts of story's about
what and when and how much it will affect cost and performance,


and I found this which is very interesting reading if you have 10 mins.

http://www.motorsport.org.nz/Sustainabi ... hicles.pdf

[Dunny]

I wondered when this would come up July 2010 by all accounts is what I have been told and when asked MSNZ if that date will change again (as it was originally Jan 2010) they said no that's the date.

I was also advised by MSNZ that a paper has been put forward for review with some alternatives to avgas to suit a range of budgets and includes such things as ethanol and alcohol mixes - they would not elaborate any further, but appears there should be some high octane alternatives in there

It would be safe to say the ELF fuel being used by some rally NZ competitiors is out of reach cost per litre wise for the average club racer

It is Causing abit of a stir around the traps and also some headaches for engine builders and car owners who are currently in the process of having engines built

It's especially a PITA for people running old engines with high compression

I'll be keeping a close eye on things over the coming months

(now I'll read the article)

[KinLoud]

Interesting - but the results are compiled in a strange way.
Fuel consumption is presented as L per minute at peak power etc. but should really be shown as a specific fuel consumption i.e. grams fuel per hp per hour etc. or cost per horse power per hour.

Also - the co2 emissions is shown as a percentage of gas volume as peak power...
- sort of meaningless as the power varies between the different fuels.
- also exhaust from the different fuels could be different temperature and so different mass... a percentage of co2 per mass of exhaust would be better...
A more meaningful measurement could be mass of co2 per hp per hour.

The objective of this report seems to be directed at CO2 emissions vs cost vs power

Also - this report is specifically for one particular engine (hard to cover all engines I guess) but no discussion of boost application where higher octane fuel is an important factor in the power produced.

This article has lots of promise but doesn't really deliver!

[Dunny]

It's offical I'm sure you other racers out there got the manual amendments today from MSNZ - so unless you have a (pre 86) with a COD Avgas is gone from 01/07/2010

So now to find out who does E85 in the Sth Island and how much per/ltr

That appears to be the next best option

[matt dunn]

It's offical I'm sure you other racers out there got the manual amendments today from MSNZ - so unless you have a (pre 86) with a COD Avgas is gone from 01/07/2010

So now to find out who does E85 in the Sth Island and how much per/ltr

That appears to be the next best option

From my understanding the only way to buy it is to order it in 205L drums,
and get it sent from the supplier.

I take it everyone realises that is is not the same as the version available from the pumps,
and you cannot swap from E85 to Petrol and back without a retune evey time.

[Dunny]

Yeah that's fine - dedicated race car and have never run pump fuel

That would be rubbish if it only comes in that size, hopefully it will become more available once more than just TRS will use it.

Maybe Ruapuna might drain their tanks of race gas and start pumping E85

[matt dunn]

Yeah that's fine - dedicated race car and have never run pump fuel

That would be rubbish if it only comes in that size, hopefully it will become more available once more than just TRS will use it.

Maybe Ruapuna might drain their tanks of race gas and start pumping E85

That is quite possible.

No idea of the price, but I bet it's not as cheap as avgas.

[furryfren]

This might be a tangent, but I put "Fuel Up" in my tank and its improved mileage and performance slightly. Although it could also be due to the numerous other things I'm doing to my car.

[Dunny]

Yeah that's fine - dedicated race car and have never run pump fuel

That would be rubbish if it only comes in that size, hopefully it will become more available once more than just TRS will use it.

Maybe Ruapuna might drain their tanks of race gas and start pumping E85

That is quite possible.

No idea of the price, but I bet it's not as cheap as avgas.

I don't mind paying abit more per/ltr, I have that luxury of only having a 1300cc so hardly consume huge amounts of fuel per race meeting

We'll see how it pans out, if you do hear of it being sold down this way post up here.

Cheers

[matt dunn]

I don't mind paying abit more per/ltr, I have that luxury of only having a 1300cc so hardly consume huge amounts of fuel per race meeting

We'll see how it pans out, if you do hear of it being sold down this way post up here.

Cheers

LOL, good for you, bad for me,

my car uses over a litre of gas every lap.

Research tells me it's another Gull product so not much luck finding it.

No doubt not that MSNZ has released it the info and availability will become more widespread.

[fivebob]

With E85 you'll be using approx 50-60% more fuel as it's stoichometric afr is around 9.7:1

[frost]

holy crap, so how is it a more environmentally friendly fuel if we use 50% more!

[matt dunn]

With E85 you'll be using approx 50-60% more fuel as it's stoichometric afr is around 9.7:1

Yeah, the figures I've seen say 40% more, but I spose there is some variations.

Guess I'll be needing a larger fuel tank for my car,
It struggles as it is for holding enough for some of the longer races.

Also pumps lines and injectors may be nearing there limts too possibly.

[fivebob]

Just going by the AFR is should need a little over 50% more fuel, but you can probably get away with running E85 at a leaner mixture due to the increased cylinder cooling, so 40% may be right.

[dnalunchie]

I may be completly wrong here (please correct me if I am) But after speaking to a couple motorsport guys I was under the impression that avgas isnt THAT much flasher than normal 98? I mean i can completly understand how c16 or similar would be nessecary for drag racing to facilitate higher boost but in rally and circuit racing is it that much better?

[fangsport]

It's offical I'm sure you other racers out there got the manual amendments today from MSNZ - so unless you have a (pre 86) with a COD Avgas is gone from 01/07/2010

how hard is it to get a COD for a modified Jappa like yours, Dunny?? i am thinking that this could be an option for the Levin??

So now to find out who does E85 in the Sth Island and how much per/ltr.
That appears to be the next best option

unsure how much of an option E85 is for older cars, as others have since posted, fuel lines may need replacing, and (if the TRS cars are anything to go by) the consumption will be significantly higher (read more expensive).

I may be completly wrong here (please correct me if I am) But after speaking to a couple motorsport guys I was under the impression that avgas isnt THAT much flasher than normal 98?

the testing done with BP98 and Avgas, suggests that with good tuning, the results will be very similar, but they used V8 Tourer engines and late model Evo as the test medium. would be interested to see results of say Datto A12 or Toyota 4K on sidedrafts as these engines were designed when unleaded wasn't and option, and don't has the luxery of 'knock' detection or in-cabin A/F adjustments which are commomplace with EFI.

I mean i can completely understand how c16 or similar would be nessecary for drag racing to facilitate higher boost but in rally and circuit racing is it that much better?

if you ever get the chance, get a carburetted car, and put Elf WRF in the tank . cheapest performance mod you can do to it!!! without tuning and a dyno report, i suspect somewhere like 25% increase in torque. was the only time i have chirped sticky tyres changing into 3rd

[Mr Revhead]

if you ever get the chance, get a carburetted car, and put Elf WRF in the tank . cheapest performance mod you can do to it!!! without tuning and a dyno report, i suspect somewhere like 25% increase in torque. was the only time i have chirped sticky tyres changing into 3rd

fuel would be worth more than the car

[Boost_4_Life]

holy crap, so how is it a more environmentally friendly fuel if we use 50% more!

My cousin works in v8 supercars, and they've got the same situ over there with the new fuel. They are using around 30% more i think from memory. They were worried at the start of the season how many fuel stops they would be making at the enduros... not sure hows its panning out now tho, they might be on top of it.

[dnalunchie]

It's offical I'm sure you other racers out there got the manual amendments today from MSNZ - so unless you have a (pre 86) with a COD Avgas is gone from 01/07/2010

how hard is it to get a COD for a modified Jappa like yours, Dunny?? i am thinking that this could be an option for the Levin??

So now to find out who does E85 in the Sth Island and how much per/ltr.
That appears to be the next best option

unsure how much of an option E85 is for older cars, as others have since posted, fuel lines may need replacing, and (if the TRS cars are anything to go by) the consumption will be significantly higher (read more expensive).

I may be completly wrong here (please correct me if I am) But after speaking to a couple motorsport guys I was under the impression that avgas isnt THAT much flasher than normal 98?

the testing done with BP98 and Avgas, suggests that with good tuning, the results will be very similar, but they used V8 Tourer engines and late model Evo as the test medium. would be interested to see results of say Datto A12 or Toyota 4K on sidedrafts as these engines were designed when unleaded wasn't and option, and don't has the luxery of 'knock' detection or in-cabin A/F adjustments which are commomplace with EFI.

I mean i can completely understand how c16 or similar would be nessecary for drag racing to facilitate higher boost but in rally and circuit racing is it that much better?

if you ever get the chance, get a carburetted car, and put Elf WRF in the tank . cheapest performance mod you can do to it!!! without tuning and a dyno report, i suspect somewhere like 25% increase in torque. was the only time i have chirped sticky tyres changing into 3rd

where can one get this wonderful fuel? and also what does wrf stand for ? is it similar to q16/c16?

[Mr Revhead]

World Rally Fuel
ie WRC spec control fuel
From ELF