carbie 4age

[iOnic]

Every time I've been out we've run on the same size jets as there's been no need to change them Perhaps it's different from car to car. The car had a different set of jets during practice at the start of it's last season and they weren't replaced for most of the season (they did get replaced but nowhere near as often as people like to make out). Car is now retired and sits in the workshop gathering dust. Unless you've worked on a single car for an entire season it's hard to say how often certain things get done - during practice it's common for different jets etc to be tried to see what works best - that doesn't mean on race day they get changed every few laps. Dual lambda sensors and the MoTec datalogger = regulation parts. The MSNZ datalogger uses them to gather information to make sure everything is done according to spec.

Even if you have to re-jet a carb.......it's not like it costs the earth or is hard to do...and it's mostly done to get the tune spot on which wouldn't really matter on an average 4age setup. So I'm not too sure where the problem is...I doubt the OP is gonna run a MoTec ADL dash logging system and dual lambda sensors/egt probes on his 4AGE

[escortman]

ok back on topic, i assume ur putting this in the suzuki body? for 4wheeling? leave it efi get used to power/driving it, then put a sc14 on it ull need the torque

[sergei]

Just out of curiosity, are you a mechanic or have any formal training in the field?

I would be mechanic if pay was good, and I would not had to deal with shitters all day.

Now from my experience in my own field formal training (especially in NZ) means jack shit. I have seen mechanics with whole load of training that were extremely stupid.

Bringing your profession here not going to get you anywhere. There are plenty of monkeys that can pound their chests and pointing at framed certificates, that does not stop them being monkeys (I am not saying you are one).

The carburettor is mechanically much more complicated device than a fuel injection system. Do you agree or not?

Converting EFI to carb is drastic and unnecessary measure, since getting aftermarket computer+injectors+fuel pump will be cheaper, simpler and more reliable. Do you agree or not?

EFI tune is more persistent, and more reliable than carb tune. Do you agree or not?

The OP asked if it is worth it to change to carbs. My answer is No. Do you agree or not?

IMHO no matter what is the goal (unless regulation restriction) if the car is EFI then staying EFI is right course of actions. If the car is carbed, then for many applications converting to EFI would be better path, especially for forced induction.

Carbs are to fuelling like points are to ignition.

[Alex B]

Not here for an argument at all. I've simply posted what I've found with my real world experience with them - whether you like/believe it or not is your business and doesn't bother me in the least. I also don't need you to tell me how Carb's work. It's my job to know how they work and fix them when they don't and it's what I'm trained to do.....You can refute common knowledge all you want but sadly the only person that cares is you - it's common knowledge for a reason. Just out of curiosity, are you a mechanic or have any formal training in the field?

I could be wrong here, but you are hardly a seasoned pro you're self are you? Thought you were still doing your apprenticeship? Sorry, that may be someone else on MR2OC.

[iOnic]

You're right. I was indeed doing that last year. However I also have years of personal and workplace experience under my belt and got to work with the old man while he was alive and learned a lot from him about older cars and how they were set up. I think I know a tiny bit more about them than an IT expert. That aside, Sergei is pretty much saying the same thing I said from the beginning - NO a Carby conversion would NOT be worthwhile on a 4AGE. Everything else that has been discussed here is OT and doesn't answer the original poster's question.

Eg, telling me to pull a carby apart and count the parts Am I supposed to believe that a 4K's fuel system is more complicated than a 4AGE's?

Here's a good read on the subject anyway

http://www.moddedmustangs.com/forums/5- ... -carb.html

[Alex B]

I'd disagree on that, just because his job isnt cars, does not mean he is not good at it. And just because he is IT does not mean he doesn't like to get his hands dirty, I for one can tell you that from first hand experience, or what ever else you were trying to stereotype by saying he works in IT.
Its a passion, like most toyspeeder's I would think, I have no problems learning about, there for being knowledgeable on things I have a passion for

[iOnic]

I'd disagree on that, just because his job isnt cars, does not mean he is not good at it.

It does however mean he isn't constantly immersed with hundreds of different setups from different manufacturers and able to see the differences between the lot. To say Carburetor design hasn't changed in 50 years is like saying EFI technology hasn't changed since it was first made....To this day companies still produce and market carbs and have continued development on them - he would know this if he was in the industry and worked with the products he's talking about.

Posting a picture of an exploded carburettor that only shows 5-6 individual parts and a whole lot of bolts and seals and then saying that they are more complex isn't any better. The average EFI system has more sensors alone than a carb setup has in individual parts

Saying all an EFI engine needs is a coupla temp sensors, a crank angle sensor injectors and a flow/pressure meter is also a bit short sighted - what about the tps, coolant temp sensors, idle speed control systems, oxygen sensors, ecu, the various maps in the ecu's and fail safe systems, wiring, warnings and diagnostics, high pressure fuel components etc etc etc

Then saying he's seen cars with 500km's and EFI and hasn't seen the same with Carb'd cars........well he's not exactly in the industry of working on vehicles often so he probably doesn't get to see a whole lot of them does he? FWIW I see cars almost on a daily basis that have been around the clock several times so 500,000km's is nothing really.

I hope you see where I'm going with this...Didn't really wanna go into it or go even further off topic but meh damage is done I'm not stereotyping Sergei - he definitely knows his stuff and is a good guy to have a chat to about it.

Plenty of examples of carby 4AGE's on youtube if you can be bothered having a look - they do go quite well and with guys on the Club4ag site getting power figures around the 180-200hp mark out of them I'd say they must be nearly as well as EFI versions.

[sergei]

Then saying he's seen cars with 500km's and EFI and hasn't seen the same with Carb'd cars........well he's not exactly in the industry of working on vehicles often so he probably doesn't get to see a whole lot of them does he?

But here you are mistaken somewhat.
I am not in industry now, and I am not working on the cars now... as much I used to. I used to be in the industry. I used to deal with all sort of cars. I get all these random people coming up to me and asking me to fix their cars, I tell them GTFO, as I have better things to do.

Being "certified" mechanic does not require a lot of mental capacity. It is just doing same stuff all over again.

If you have one profession it does not mean you suck at everything else.
I can bet I am better electronics repairmen than an average repairmen in NZ, but it does not mean I would work as one.
I speak Russian and used to speak Romanian fluently it does not mean I will be working as translator.
Hey I have a lot of experience on cleaning (worked as professional cleaner, as professional as they get) it does not mean I want to be one . Or harvest crops if going by your logic, I have about 7 years worth of it under my belt.


Don't judge book by its cover .

[iOnic]

Sorry for underestimating you Sergei, It's actually quite surprising how much of a jack of all trades you are

[NZ_AE86]

Can I ask which car/team you were working for?

[cat007]

Try pulling one apart, and count how many individual parts you have. With EFI all you need is 2 temp sensor, crank position sensor, pressure and or flow meter, injectors, etc,

I bet the exploded view of all those sensors would be a lot scarier than a wee carbie

[JustinSpiderholden]

I'm kinda keen to know what the the secert squirrel is with the NZV8s

As I thought this series was pretty much regualted to the point where there were no differnces between the cars?

[Mr Revhead]

There is always difference between cars.
Look at group N rally cars... They are meant to be stock road cars with mods for safety, plus shocks and brakes.
But that's about it. So how come they can pump out near 300hp with those restrictors?

Money, spent on blueprinting and tweaking everything possible within the rules.

[RedMist]

We never made carb's work in offroad racing. They iced up, we destroyed floats and could never get the fuel flow constant given wild G forces. In offroading EFI is certainly a better solution.

[d1 mule]

i have very limited knowledge either way, but wta about the N2 ae86s that were converted back to carb?? they were racing them when 86s were still new.

surely you wouldnt remove a brand new EFI system and replace it with carbs in your race car unless it was an improovement???

[79rolla]

there is nothing wrong with efi for offroading, my mate runs a 1uz with ef1 in his compitition spec offroader, just cut the loom down to bear minimum and had all the fuses seperate from the rest of the electrics so if something goes wrong he can trace it back easily, he also ran new wiers directly betwene plug to stop any risks of broken conections ect

he is a bit anil about that sort of stuff tho

if its just a hack ofroader carb could be better, remembering alot of people cant get there head around injection, and if things go wrong on a carb setup its generaly somthing micanical so easer for the average jo to fix..

everything has an up side and a down side, nothing can be perfect so you just need to choes the corect one for the aplication

my 2c

[Mr Revhead]

i have very limited knowledge either way, but wta about the N2 ae86s that were converted back to carb?? they were racing them when 86s were still new.

surely you wouldnt remove a brand new EFI system and replace it with carbs in your race car unless it was an improovement???

What about the ones that used TRD injection?

[sergei]

Try pulling one apart, and count how many individual parts you have. With EFI all you need is 2 temp sensor, crank position sensor, pressure and or flow meter, injectors, etc,

I bet the exploded view of all those sensors would be a lot scarier than a wee carbie

Temperature sensors are just simple temperature dependant resistors.
You never see an exploded diagram of them as they are not serviceable.
Injectors are just simple solenoids (coil + ferrous valve).

[Truenotch]

i have very limited knowledge either way, but wta about the N2 ae86s that were converted back to carb?? they were racing them when 86s were still new.

surely you wouldnt remove a brand new EFI system and replace it with carbs in your race car unless it was an improovement???

That's because the software they ran wasn't too advanced and carbs were the tried and true method. In the 80's carbs would have been a much easier way to get 4x45mm throttles, plus the race teams already knew how to work with them.

It's interesting that the TOMS AE100 corolla touring car in SS2000 runs carbs on a silvertop though...


It still makes no sense to convert to carbs on a road going 20valve though... you may as well buy any link and wire it up with the standard inbuilt map sensor + TPS - then you get the advantage of being able to change things in a format that we understand..... cause I'm sure young-ish people that are into cars won't know how to tune a carb.

[jakesae101]

i have very limited knowledge either way, but wta about the N2 ae86s that were converted back to carb?? they were racing them when 86s were still new.

surely you wouldnt remove a brand new EFI system and replace it with carbs in your race car unless it was an improovement???

That's because the software they ran wasn't too advanced and carbs were the tried and true method. In the 80's carbs would have been a much easier way to get 4x45mm throttles, plus the race teams already knew how to work with them.

It's interesting that the TOMS AE100 corolla touring car in SS2000 runs carbs on a silvertop though...


It still makes no sense to convert to carbs on a road going 20valve though... you may as well buy any link and wire it up with the standard inbuilt map sensor + TPS - then you get the advantage of being able to change things in a format that we understand..... cause I'm sure young-ish people that are into cars won't know how to tune a carb.

dont paint us all with the same brush im 18 my first 2 cars had carbs my rs2000 had sidies what a pain they were to keep in tune sometimes