Fuels for Motorsport

General discussions on all non technical car related topics

Moderator: The Mod Squad

Postby Dunny » Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:03 am

dnalunchie wrote:I may be completly wrong here (please correct me if I am) But after speaking to a couple motorsport guys I was under the impression that avgas isnt THAT much flasher than normal 98? I mean i can completly understand how c16 or similar would be nessecary for drag racing to facilitate higher boost but in rally and circuit racing is it that much better?


try running a >13.5:1 compression engine on anything other than avgas

fangsport wrote:how hard is it to get a COD for a modified Jappa like yours, Dunny?? i am thinking that this could be an option for the Levin??


I havn't looked into the COD thing, kinda not a jappa being starlet, but it is a KP61 so was a import :lol:

fangsport wrote:the testing done with BP98 and Avgas, suggests that with good tuning, the results will be very similar, but they used V8 Tourer engines and late model Evo as the test medium. would be interested to see results of say Datto A12 or Toyota 4K on sidedrafts as these engines were designed when unleaded wasn't and option, and don't has the luxery of 'knock' detection or in-cabin A/F adjustments which are commomplace with EFI.??


Correct here in lies my problem, no doubt we will find out how a 4k runs on E85 if I can get my hands on some. Hopefully it handles the VERY high compression ratio
User avatar
Dunny
Toyspeed Member
 
Posts: 332
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2002 2:14 pm
Location: Christchurch

Postby fangsport » Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:20 am

Dunny, if Classic Racing guidelines are to adhered to, then it would be far easier if one was running a car of British/European origin to conform. i know the Classic guys didn't want Burts Starlet.

Does anyone know the criteria for obtaining a COD?? how close to group homologation etc does the car have to remain???
I've been a bad bad boy. I should read the rules and behave before I get spanked by an admin

f#@k you i won't do what ya tell me

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Fangwood/225658970893404
fangsport
Toyspeed Member
 
Posts: 4169
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2003 10:52 am
Location: Timaru

Postby Dunny » Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:36 pm

fangsport wrote:Dunny, if Classic Racing guidelines are to adhered to, then it would be far easier if one was running a car of British/European origin to conform. i know the Classic guys didn't want Burts Starlet.

Does anyone know the criteria for obtaining a COD?? how close to group homologation etc does the car have to remain???


Yeah I'm not sure how it works, the car needs to be under schedule K or T&C or something which I'm not familar with.

It would be safe to say my car is far to modified to be even considered, far more so in the suspension, interior, bodyshell etc than burts

I'll have to pin my hopes on E85 being cost effective and becoming more available or at least being able to test it and then go from there

It's a tough one :(
User avatar
Dunny
Toyspeed Member
 
Posts: 332
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2002 2:14 pm
Location: Christchurch

Postby fangsport » Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:07 pm

i had a wee look, and it appears that if the car is post-'79, it must conform to group A Touring car regs, unless maybe it can get a COD under Sch.RH (historic rallying), which may be a goer??

might ring God this afternoon and get his take on the matter.
I've been a bad bad boy. I should read the rules and behave before I get spanked by an admin

f#@k you i won't do what ya tell me

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Fangwood/225658970893404
fangsport
Toyspeed Member
 
Posts: 4169
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2003 10:52 am
Location: Timaru

Postby matt dunn » Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:58 pm

Mr Revhead wrote:World Rally Fuel
ie WRC spec control fuel
From ELF


Yeah at a nice WRC price too,

but if you can afford a WRC car, I spose you can afford WRC spec Fuel.

And as for 98, I was keen to try it too as in theroy some cars will make more power with it than avgas,
but from the experiences other i know have had with the up and down quality of it and lack of availability, i'll stick with avgas till now.

I will definatly try the E85 when it becomes readily available.
7AGTE - DX20VT - viewtopic.php?t=59733
Discussion - viewtopic.php?t=59751
matt dunn
Toyspeed Member
 
Posts: 7109
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2003 1:01 am
Location: Timaru

Postby Lith » Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:32 pm

Thought something we did this weekend would be of interest to people in this thread, did some tuning on Monday on a mates R32 GTSt running a stock internal RB20DET and a T3/T4 he had got for $500. The car had previously been road tuned to around 21psi on BP98 with overly safe (around 11:1) numbers and with that setup has managed a 12.4 @ 115mph at the drags.

The first run we did on the dyno was on 98 running 20psi to get an idea of where it was at before we played. It ran 248kw @ wheels like that, which was pretty respectable all things considered.

We then drained the remaining 98 and pulled out the containers of Ethanol and petrol we just happened to have and mixed up a new E33 (it was easier to do accurately with the containers we had) blend to throw in the tank and proceeded to tune.

I had worked out that the new blend would like .78λ as "rich max power" so we used that as an idea of where to tune to, which worked out as 11.5:1 on the dyno with the dyno treating stoich as 14.7 and we set off to it.

The fuel system didn't have to work an aweful lot harder which was nice, though you wouldn't run E33 on a car whose fuel system was maxed out on 98 to maintain sensible AFRs - it definitely liked more timing and it actually improved spool by around 200rpm across the board. The really neat thing, 294kw @ wheels on 21.7psi with what was still erring on the side of caution in terms of timing etc. as the poor thing is still stock internals and running the not-overly-tough R32 gearbox and rear end haha.

Lots of fun, quite keen to try some out on my R33 at some point....

20litres of E100 cost $85, we 10 litres of it with 30litres of Mobil98 (yeah already E10) so effectively worked out as $93 for 40litres, or around $2.30 a litre for fun fuel. Not too bad value for money I reckon...
2007 Mazdaspeed Axela
User avatar
Lith
Toyspeed Member
 
Posts: 3137
Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2002 5:22 pm
Location: Kapiti

Postby Dunny » Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:27 am

Interesting there Lith

if E85 or the likes ran for around the $2.50 per litre mark and was available I'd be more than happy, although yet to be tested.

I'll have to have a chat to the TRS guys to see if I can get 20ltrs or so off them at some stage
User avatar
Dunny
Toyspeed Member
 
Posts: 332
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2002 2:14 pm
Location: Christchurch

Postby matt dunn » Mon Jan 18, 2010 10:31 pm

Update



The supply of Avgas as a race gas is coming to an end as of 01-07-10.
This means that one of the following must be used as quoted from schedule A (3.9 FUEL) of the Motor sport manual.

Plans are in place to have E85 available.
E85 testing results are also available on the Motor sport NZ web site.
The price is yet to be confirmed.


3.9 Fuel:
(1) Approved fuels: The following are the only fuels approved for use in competition. The
specifications are detailed in Part Two of this Schedule (refer Chart No. A3.9.1);
(a) Commercially available fuel from a New Zealand Service Station forecourt pump on
current sale being;
(i) Unleaded REGULAR 91 petrol, or
(ii) Unleaded PREMIUM 96 or 98 petrol, or
(iii) Unleaded PREMIUM 98 petrol, or
(iv) Diesel; or
(b) Commercially available fuel purchased in New Zealand being;
(i) E85 petrol/ethanol blended fuel, or
(ii) Leaded Racegas / Avgas (aviation fuel) until 01-07-10*.
IMPORTANT NOTE: Leaded Racegas / Avgas will cease to be an approved fuel for
general competition use from 1st July 2010. After this date* only vehicles manufactured
prior to 01/01/1986 with a valid Certificate of Description may use leaded fuel under this
schedule. (Also refer Appendix Six, Schedule AA).
7AGTE - DX20VT - viewtopic.php?t=59733
Discussion - viewtopic.php?t=59751
matt dunn
Toyspeed Member
 
Posts: 7109
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2003 1:01 am
Location: Timaru

Postby JustinSpiderholden » Mon Jan 18, 2010 10:49 pm

Dunny wrote:I wondered when this would come up July 2010 by all accounts is what I have been told and when asked MSNZ if that date will change again (as it was originally Jan 2010) they said no that's the date.

I was also advised by MSNZ that a paper has been put forward for review with some alternatives to avgas to suit a range of budgets and includes such things as ethanol and alcohol mixes - they would not elaborate any further, but appears there should be some high octane alternatives in there

It would be safe to say the ELF fuel being used by some rally NZ competitiors is out of reach cost per litre wise for the average club racer

It is Causing abit of a stir around the traps and also some headaches for engine builders and car owners who are currently in the process of having engines built

It's especially a PITA for people running old engines with high compression

I'll be keeping a close eye on things over the coming months

(now I'll read the article)


Why are they getting rid of Av-Gas is it to be more green and tree hugging friendly?

Seems pointless to me
JustinSpiderholden
Toyspeed Member
 
Posts: 978
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2002 11:40 am

Postby fangsport » Mon Jan 18, 2010 10:53 pm

JustinSpiderholden wrote:
Why are they getting rid of Av-Gas is it to be more green and tree hugging friendly?

Seems pointless to me


so we can change to E85 and burn 30% + more of the stuff..............now that's 'Green' :roll:
I've been a bad bad boy. I should read the rules and behave before I get spanked by an admin

f#@k you i won't do what ya tell me

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Fangwood/225658970893404
fangsport
Toyspeed Member
 
Posts: 4169
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2003 10:52 am
Location: Timaru

Postby Guss » Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:43 pm

they should at least add a perfume to the E85 blend to make it smell nice like AVGAS
Guss
Toyspeed Member
 
Posts: 123
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:50 pm
Location: Auckland

Postby matt dunn » Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:59 pm

Some more Info I have been supplied by one of the guys who runs in one our our classes.

In September/October last year we did some dyno and track testing with E85. The following is what we discovered.

1) Power increase; in our situation a power gain of around 5% was achieved over avgas. For other cars where the ignition advance is more limited by detonation a greater power increase would be achievable.

2) Earlier boost pressure. However the down side of this is that it aggravates any boost creep problems. Also for the same boost control settings there was an increase in boost (so the settings had to be decreased to achieve the same boost level)

3) Lower engine temperatures. On track testing showed the engine temps were brought right down to the thermostats temp and was almost operating too cold. We would look at either changing the low temp competition thermostat to a standard higher temp item or look at blocking of some of the air to the radiator if we were to continue with E85.

4) A drop in exhaust gas temperature.

5) In our situation the optimum air/fuel ratios required around 50% more fuel with E85 for full power. For part throttle around 30-40% more fuel was required. This means that the injectors, fuel pump and fuel system had to cope with 50% more fuel delivery. On track fuel usage increased by around 30% (as the engine is not operating at full power 100% of the time).

6) Greater ignition system demand. If your current ignition system is boarder line with petrol it may have to be upgraded.

7) There were some other tuning considerations including cold starting.

8) Build up of fuel in the sump and accumulation of fuel in the oil breather catch tank with E85.
E85 is less volatile than petrol meaning that it takes a higher temperature to make it evaporate. More fuel enters the sump with blowby gases due to the fact that more is used and also under cold start and while the engine is warming up. The engine and engine oil needs to be above 78C to get the E85 to boil of and leave the sump at a reasonable rate (this is compounded by the fact that the fuel makes the engine run cooler). Also once it does leave the sump it condenses in the cooler catch can and builds up in the can.

9) It burns with a completely invisible flame.

10) Effect on fuel system materials. Counter to some info out there it does not attack aluminum. It does go wild on Teflon paste thread sealers ˆ it cleans this out of any treads & mixes with the fuel, and then blocks any strainers and filters (normal thread tape is ok to use). Being alcohol it is a very effective cleaner ˆ this causes problems in that any trash and gunk is cleaned out of the fuel system then mixing with the fuel which then blocks strainers and filters. In our situation it blocked the strainers for the intakes of the fuel pumps causing them to cavitate and drop fuel delivery. This happened once on the dyno and twice during track running (this was in addition to the incident with the thread sealer).

11) It attracts moisture ˆ extra consideration is needed for the engines winter storage and the fuels shelf life.

12) Cost per litre. The brand that we were using cost $3.06 (incl gst) per litre when purchased in 20L tins and $2.94 (incl gst) when purchased in 200L drums. OSCA have priced E85 from Gull at around $1.60 /L (not sure if this includes gst) but they have to buy 20 x 200L drums each purchase to get this price. GTRNZ are offering 200L drums at $2.36/L (not sure if this includes gst). None of these prices includes freight. The sharpest freight prices we could find were $83 (incl gst) to get a single 200L drum down from the north island and $60 (incl gst) to get 4 x 20L tins down. So add around 40C/L to get a 200L down.

The OSCA price was including GST and the freight price is less than $50.00 per drum ($0.25 per litre)into ChCh.


13) Availability at short notice?
7AGTE - DX20VT - viewtopic.php?t=59733
Discussion - viewtopic.php?t=59751
matt dunn
Toyspeed Member
 
Posts: 7109
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2003 1:01 am
Location: Timaru

Postby matt dunn » Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:59 pm

So thats some more stuff to think about.
7AGTE - DX20VT - viewtopic.php?t=59733
Discussion - viewtopic.php?t=59751
matt dunn
Toyspeed Member
 
Posts: 7109
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2003 1:01 am
Location: Timaru

Postby Mr Revhead » Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:10 pm

9) It burns with a completely invisible flame.

oh awesome :?
I always though IRL were mad to still run alcohol
Being the subject of E-whinges since 2004 8)

http://www.centralmotorsport.org.nz/home

Image
User avatar
Mr Revhead
SECURITY!
 
Posts: 24635
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2004 4:06 pm
Location: Nelson

Postby fangsport » Sun Jan 31, 2010 10:46 pm

Matt, what do you reckon MSNZ's response would be if you applied for a COD? your car is pre-86 :lol:
I've been a bad bad boy. I should read the rules and behave before I get spanked by an admin

f#@k you i won't do what ya tell me

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Fangwood/225658970893404
fangsport
Toyspeed Member
 
Posts: 4169
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2003 10:52 am
Location: Timaru

Postby matt dunn » Sun Jan 31, 2010 10:59 pm

fangsport wrote:Matt, what do you reckon MSNZ's response would be if you applied for a COD? your car is pre-86 :lol:



LOL, funny you should mention that.

they are looking at a classic OSCA section too which is Pre 1980,
So my corolla is a 1979 .

COD to run AVgas, hmmm.
That's a problem for next season anyway,

will probably test E85 and BP 98 and decide what to do.
the size of my fuel tank struggles now to last a decent race distance,
let alone having to carry 40% more.
7AGTE - DX20VT - viewtopic.php?t=59733
Discussion - viewtopic.php?t=59751
matt dunn
Toyspeed Member
 
Posts: 7109
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2003 1:01 am
Location: Timaru

Postby fangsport » Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:08 pm

matt dunn wrote: the size of my fuel tank struggles now to last a decent race distance,
let alone having to carry 40% more.
same problem the TRS cars had when they went 'green'.
imagine trying to run a rally car at Otago on the the stuff, you'd need to tow a trailer with you to get through the stages and the touring back to service!!!!
I've been a bad bad boy. I should read the rules and behave before I get spanked by an admin

f#@k you i won't do what ya tell me

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Fangwood/225658970893404
fangsport
Toyspeed Member
 
Posts: 4169
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2003 10:52 am
Location: Timaru

Postby Lith » Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:01 am

Guss wrote:they should at least add a perfume to the E85 blend to make it smell nice like AVGAS


Have you been around a car running E85? It smells awesome :D
2007 Mazdaspeed Axela
User avatar
Lith
Toyspeed Member
 
Posts: 3137
Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2002 5:22 pm
Location: Kapiti

Postby atmosports » Mon Feb 01, 2010 3:36 pm

You could always try the alternative they had at Hampton Downs last weekend for the classic racing/ Gull Force 10 with an octane booster & a lead additive, claimed it was 103 octane leaded racefuel sadly it wasn't even close to a match for Avgas which apparently they couldn't get/supply & no mention was made of the 10% ethanol.

I know of 4 fuel fires & numerous other problems as a result of this, with from the ethanol/additives swelling or breaking down rubber seals/components or from running this fuel in engines tuned right to the edge on avgas. Not to mention all the damage done to mechanical fuel injection systems that rely on the lead in the fuel as a lubricant for all the metal to metal components.

I'm not against the use of ethanol or methanol for motorsport use, use it a lot in speedway & drag racing but I don't see E85 as being the optimum solution for replacing Avgas especially when you look at the miniscule amounts of avgas burnt for motorsport purposes. Yes I do believe that motorsport needs to be seen as green & environmentally friendly so we can continue to race for years to come but I still believe the whole switch completely to unleaded fuels was rushed. E85 at this stage is neither cheaper or more easily obtained than avgas not to mention the issues with storing/handling it & at least with avgas when it burns you have a flame to see,as alcohol fules with their clear flames scares the shit out of me as your on fire & getting burnt before you knwo what's going on at times, the only advantage is a bucket of water usually puts out an alcohol fire.
atmosports
Toyspeed Member
 
Posts: 569
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2003 7:52 pm
Location: Auckland,New Zealand

Postby Dunny » Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:05 pm

Thanks for all that info Matt, i havent made any further progress into this although back when the original post started i did make some calls to Gull and others around the industry and sport to see how available smaller amounts of E85 was. Seems Grant Brennan is the man to talk to about using it, I was told he has done extensive testing.

Most easily accessible was 20ltr containers from NZEFI at @ $3ltr I think, that was alcotane

http://alcotane.co.nz/

I'll still need to look into this but like others I only run a small tank, and in addition to other problems I run carbs, where most if not all of the R&D I have seen has been done with EFI

I guess I'll end up making a decision on what to do when July comes around
User avatar
Dunny
Toyspeed Member
 
Posts: 332
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2002 2:14 pm
Location: Christchurch

PreviousNext

Return to General Car Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests