RIAT Temp sensor for ST205 - O for Awsome !

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RIAT Temp sensor for ST205 - O for Awsome !

Postby ST205 GT4 NZ New Group A » Thu Apr 08, 2010 1:50 am

Found this on ebay. Read below. Interested to see what people think about it.

What do you think Mr Richard ?

____________________________________________________________

This auction is for a new RIAT sensor, a rapidly responding version of the standard Toyota Celica GT4 (ST205 model) inlet air temperature sensor. The RIAT sensor replaces the standard Toyota sensor and is supplied with a new harness to connect with the engine loom. Heatshrink is supplied to make a professional installation.

This product:
eliminates heat soak- a weakness of the standard sensor
reduces the chance of detonation damaging your engine
improves economy
improves transient torque and power
improves your, or your tuner's, ability to map your engine closely - leading to further power and economy gains.
This sensor was developed for use on RX7's to cure a problem with the standard Mazda sensor. The same problem can be found on Toyota Celica GT4's and the fix is the same - replace the sensor with a modern open element type sensor.The sensor requires a thread adapter, supplied but not shown.

The sensor has the following resistance values:

Temperature Resistance
deg C Ohms
-10 9397
20 2500
80 323

The sensor can be fitted by a home mechanic and requires only the original sensor to be removed which is accessed from the top of the engine. No special tools are required, just a socket set and a soldering iron.

Read on for futher details...

What does the inlet air sensor do?

It sits in the airflow passing through the plenum, just downstream of the throttle bodies. This is the best place to measure the temperature of the intake air before it hits the injectors and the combustion chambers. The air temperature and its pressure are used, by the ECU, to calculate its density – and therefore the mass flow rate of air entering the engine. The correct amount of fuel is then added to burn with the air and create the combustion pressure that generates the engine torque. It is easy to understand that the ECU needs accurate data to determine the fueling, and that’s where the RIAT comes into play.
When the air is cold, it is dense, the ECU adds more fuel and the engine makes more torque, and more power. Cooling is achieved with chargecoolers, intercoolers and water injection methods. During stationary periods, radiated head from the radiator, engine block and turbo units heat the intake air, intercooler/chargecooler and eventually the whole intake tract. When this occurs to a standard sensor, it absorbs this heat and retains it for minutes after the rest of the system has cooled down. It is quite possible for the vehicle to complete a lap of a race track, or a 1/4mile run before the sensor accurately reflects the system temperature. During this period, the ECU has been fuelling the car incorrectly, thinking the air is hot – a lean condition that could lead to detonation. Tuners, and Toyota, compensate for this by running on the rich side of what is safe, which leads to poor economy and sooty exhaust during acceleration.
The RIAT will enable tuning closer to optimum, giving you greater fuel economy, power, and allowing real time management of water injection trigger points. It will also allow you to ‘see’ peak temperatures that may have been masked by the slower responding sensor. Do not be surprised if your car surges away from heat-soak situations as the ECU responds the inrush of cold air and fuels accordingly.
Finally, the sensor is an automotive grade component, designed specifically for this purpose. It will not fail and carries a lifetime guarantee. The harness is manufactured to suit, and is again automotive grade with the highest temperature resistance available. It will not melt in the heat of your engine bay. You will receive an installation document that explains how the component assembles to your vehicle, and how it is possible to check the calibration of the new sensor against the old, to ensure you are not risking your pride and joy, FENNE DEVELOPMENTS understands how important your investment is to you.


What is the problem with the standard sensor?

Two years ago I found that the inlet temperatures I was seeing (Apexi ECU with commander) with my RX7 FD3 (series 3 1992 onwards) did not tie in with what I knew to be happening. The inlet temperature should have fluctuated as I accelerated through the gears as the turbos passed through their range of efficiency. I was running stock twins, at 1.1 BAR, so they were running above their normal operating range. On inspection I found the standard air temperature sensor to be heavily shielded with a large time constant. This means that any change in temperature will not register quickly with the ECU. If you have wondered why your water injection, or a sudden increase in speed (and intercooler efficiency), does not translate into variations in inlet temperature, then the standard inlet temperature sensor is the reason.

What are the gains?

The graph (picture) shows the differences between the two sensor types when hot and cold air are applied. The RIAT sensor (in blue) can be seen to respond very quickly. Registering the initial step increase in temperature. At 20,000msec the Mazda Sensor is lagging the RIAT sensor by 15°C and fails to reach the system temperature before the heat source is removed. At 140,000msec the step inputs become larger and faster, simulating accelerating and braking around a race track. The RIAT sensor responds quickly, recording peaks of 45°C and lows of 10°C. The standard Mazda sensor is heatsoaked at this point and records a peak of 34°C and a low of 31°C. A clear demonstration of the benefits to be had by moving to the RIAT sensor.

Because the RIAT sensor responds so much faster, the car can be mapped leaner. Why? Because your ECU will now see the surge of cold air as the water injection kicks in or the air starts to flow externally through your intercooler, it is therefore no longer necessary to add a blanket rich map, to protect the car from heatsoak events. The RIAT sensor just does not heatsoak. At all. Why is heatsoak dangerous? When the standard sensor heatsoaks, the ECU thinks the air is 70°C. It thinks the air is hot and thin, with not much oxygen. As you accelerate away from heatsoak, joining a motorway for instance, the boost triggers the water injection and the intercooler starts working efficiently. Inlet charge temperature drops to 5°C. The ECU doesn’t know this yet as the sensor is still reading 69°C, 68°C, 67°C slowly catching up with reality. The engine is now breathing cold, dense, oxygen rich air. This causes a lean condition taking you closer to the detonation limit and potentially overheating your turbine blades in your turbo. Of cause this doesn’t really happen, your experienced tuner will have mapped your car rich because he knows that when he maps engines lean- they detonate and break rotor tips. So your engines safe, but drinks fuel and your friends tell you she blows black smoke during hard acceleration.

Is it safe?

Yes. UK tuner, Dragon Performance, has tested the unit and recommends it, commenting that “the difference is like night and day. The logs show it better than I can explain, the speed and accuracy is in another league, highly recommended.”

This sensor is manufactured by an OE supplier, has been used extensively for 5 years and has NEVER failed in service. Beware of cheap copies. These may not have been developed for the demands of the intake manifold system. Contact with fuel vapour, high temperature and vibration may age them prematurely.

Is there a fuel saving to be had?

I have calculated the theoretical possible fuel economy increase. I have used a generic temperature correction curve and assumed a worst case heat soak of 40 degrees C. To explain, the temperature correction curve is that which the ECU uses to determine how much fuel to put in, dependant on incoming air temperature. i.e hotter air=less fuel.
The heat soak is from my own experience, I have seen 70°C on a cool day, so 40°C is quite conservative. Others may have seen more or less?
The reduction in fuel for a 40°C increase in inlet air temperature is 6%. It can be argued therefore, that to guard against a lean condition, a 'safe' map would be at least 6% rich due to the sensor lag.

To conclude, a 6% reduction in the over-rich condition should be possible.
The fuel saving works out at £13.50/1000miles (20mpg, £4.5/gallon).

Why does this sensor make mapping easier?

When mapping a car you are altering the ignition timing and the fuelling at each load point. You examine the data output in four ways - knock, AFR (Air fuel ratio - lean/rich condition), EGT (Exhaust Gas Temperature), combustion pressure. With this information you can adjust the timing and fuelling to suit your requirements of power, economy, and drivability.
When rolling road mapping, the demands on the intercooling system are extreme as airflow may be down on normal road/track conditions. This can cause the inlet air to run hot and cold depending on your load state.
If the inlet air sensor is not following the actual inlet air temperature, the ECU will not be able to match the fuelling correctly and this will cause rich/lean conditions. This will actually make it more difficult to map, as you will need to wait longer at each load point for the sensor to 'catch up'. Straining your engine for longer than necessary, and increasing the risk of detonation.
It is actually easier to map a car with a faster acting inlet temperature sensor, as it is for any sensor. The better your input, the faster the ECU can respond and the steadier your outputs will be. Its important to understand that the ECU is using the inlet temperature to adjust the fueling automatically, all the time the engine is running. You will not be able to 'see' any difference unless you specifically look at air inlet temperature.

Its also important to note that if your car does heat soak, the ECU steps up the fuelling (at about 60-70°C) to reduce the detonation risk. This impairs fuel economy and makes the car sluggish, and the risk of plugs fouling is increased. This sensor eliminates the heatsoak at source. You may still see high temperatures, this will be due to an overstressed or poorly constructed intercooling assembly.

Is a re-map required?

The sensor is safe to use without a remap. It is an automotive grade unit and each sensor has it's calibration checked. There is a small risk that your own sensor has drifted out of tolerance and when your car was mapped, the fuelling was adjusted to suit this 'drift'.
The risk of damage is very small for two reasons:
1. A 40°C 'drift' is worth half an air fuel ratio. That means that if your sensor was reading 40°C cold, then replacing it with a correct sensor will cause your car to run 6% leaner (half and air/fuel ratio). If your sensor was this far out, your tuner would (should) have noticed as your inlet temp would have been -20°C in an ambient environment and replaced your standard sensor. If your car has not been remapped, the new sensor will correct any problems with your existing sensor.

2. Included in the instructions with the product is a simple method to check the calibration of your sensor. You will require a volt/resistance meter to do this, or have a laptop link/commander so that you can read what the ECU is 'seeing'.

This is a great product and those of you with Apexi Commanders and laptop links will see the benefit immediately. Don't be dismayed if you see new peak temperatures - they were there all along. Now that you are aware you can target them with upgrades to intercooling. If your car is due a mapping session, fitment of the sensor will allow your map to be leaner without risking the engine. Saving you fuel and giving you a punchy, tight response.
The RIAT sensor will be dispatched within 48hrs, postage is included in the auction price. The RIAT sensor is guaranteed for life. Should the sensor fail, simply return the unit and a replacement will be dispatched.

___________________________________________________________ :o :o
Last edited by ST205 GT4 NZ New Group A on Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Akane » Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:09 am

After all this blah blah, there's only 1 thing I wanna know

Price.
No "stance", no "hellaflush", none of that bullshit. Nothing but no grip on full boost.
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Price

Postby ST205 GT4 NZ New Group A » Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:00 am

24 pounds
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ebay Item No.

Postby ST205 GT4 NZ New Group A » Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:09 am

250598737475
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Postby sergei » Thu Apr 08, 2010 9:12 am

I find it questionable. First it states how great it is because it is more precise and faster, and on the bottom it says that even if there is 40'C drift out of spec it would make SFA difference.
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Postby mr30%jr » Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:36 am

the stock thermistors have a VERY fast reaction rate i allways thought it was the ECU which was sensitive to temp spikes and took a long time to bring the timing back to normal?
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Postby cogent » Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:39 am

I'll do some digging on rx7club, but I do recall this being mentioned more than a few times regarding the RX7's.

Something I've found is that a lot of the heat-related issues mentioned and outlined on RX7club, are not as present within NZ due to our colder climate.

edit: bit of reading here
http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t ... hlight=iat
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New sensor installed

Postby ST205 GT4 NZ New Group A » Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:02 am

Got this sucker installed -

WOW !

I don't know if the results i got are due to the supporting modifications that I have ie , intercooler, turbo, power fc etc....

But my car is performing noticeable better.

Smoother power generally

Quicker off from the lights and from a standstill

It seems to be accelerating better through the rev range

More responsive at any rpm

The car actually sit ups on acceleration before it was generally flat

Funny it doesn't seem to running as higher boost as before but covering more ground the speedo climbing as fast as the tach

Unfortunately I am using a lot more petrol as I am finding it hard to leave it alone.

The standard sensor was still very hot when we took it out and the car had been sitting for 15 mins + obviously the original sensor heat sinks.

Im really happy with it- best $60 dollars i have spent.

Got the guys email if any one wants to talk to him.




:lol: :lol:
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Postby Al » Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:32 am

Your review sounds like an add for Motor Up.
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sensor

Postby ST205 GT4 NZ New Group A » Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:26 am

Yip pretty happy about it, the proof is in the pudding
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Re: New sensor installed

Postby gt4dude » Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:20 am

ST205 GT4 NZ New Group A wrote:I don't know if the results i got are due to the supporting modifications that I have ie , intercooler, turbo, power fc etc....



What do you mean by this?

Are you saying I need intercooler, turbo, power fc to make some gains from this RIAT? Wont that give you gains anyways? What are you saying?

Would it be worth it on my STOCK ST205 or not really?


ST205 GT4 NZ New Group A wrote:Funny it doesn't seem to running as higher boost as before


Did you change anything else to affect this at the same time you changed the temp sensor? Eg Airfilter, Exhaust, etc.

Eg, My ST205 (on the stock wastegate, no boost controller or tap, etc) hits 1.2 Bar and fuel cut at 5000 rpm when a K&N Pod filter is installed.

When I run the stock air box with a high flow panel filter it hangs on to 1.1 Bar between 5000 to 7000 rpm.




I suppose for $60 bucks I should just try it, whats the link to the website where u can order it for st205
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Postby ST205 GT4 NZ New Group A » Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:34 am

I have a lot of modifications - all the normal stuff , with those modifications this fast reacting sensor might make a bigger difference as opposed to a more standard car but i am only guessing, only one way to find out though.

I would think that it would still make a difference in the drivability of a more standard car ie no heat sunk sensor effect

I only changed the sensor nothing else

My car seems to be developing more power with less boost.

Thanks
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Postby ST205 GT4 NZ New Group A » Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:40 am

jonathan@fennelldevelopments.co.uk

is the guys direct email for orders i payed 24 pounds
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Re: New sensor installed

Postby sergei » Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:41 am

gt4dude wrote:
ST205 GT4 NZ New Group A wrote:I don't know if the results i got are due to the supporting modifications that I have ie , intercooler, turbo, power fc etc....



What do you mean by this?

Are you saying I need intercooler, turbo, power fc to make some gains from this RIAT? Wont that give you gains anyways? What are you saying?

Would it be worth it on my STOCK ST205 or not really?


ST205 GT4 NZ New Group A wrote:Funny it doesn't seem to running as higher boost as before


Did you change anything else to affect this at the same time you changed the temp sensor? Eg Airfilter, Exhaust, etc.

Eg, My ST205 (on the stock wastegate, no boost controller or tap, etc) hits 1.2 Bar and fuel cut at 5000 rpm when a K&N Pod filter is installed.

When I run the stock air box with a high flow panel filter it hangs on to 1.1 Bar between 5000 to 7000 rpm.




I suppose for $60 bucks I should just try it, whats the link to the website where u can order it for st205


Regarding your boost creep problem, have you got custom downpipe? You will need to either restrict the downpipe (severely), or invest in external wastegates (along with custom manifold or spacer), or put back stock exhaust.
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Postby BR0Z » Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:45 am

Hi - is this specific to the ST205 or would it be able to be used in a ST185 RC?

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Postby blindnz » Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:21 am

are you jonathan? because you sure sound like someone who is over enthusiastically promoting this product.
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Postby ST205 GT4 NZ New Group A » Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:27 am

Nope- Frank -NZ new st205 1994 one of the five (now four and a shell !)

Hey it just worked really well for me and was cheap after spending thousands on the car to date. ( and i mean thousands )

I recommend if any one is thinking of getting one- do your own research, email the guy, check it out on the internet.

Keen to see if any one else gets good results.
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Postby mr30%jr » Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:06 am

lol see what it does to my st165 :lol: bet it doesnt do shit lol

nothing would make that combersome sack o shit go any better
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Postby sergei » Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:46 am

mr30%jr wrote:lol see what it does to my st165 :lol: bet it doesnt do sh*t lol

nothing would make that combersome sack o sh*t go any better


ST205 running gear will ;)
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Postby mr30%jr » Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:03 pm

sergei wrote:
mr30%jr wrote:lol see what it does to my st165 :lol: bet it doesnt do sh*t lol

nothing would make that combersome sack o sh*t go any better


ST205 running gear will ;)



you pay for it.. ill do it :wink:
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