New MSNZ approved fuels

[Alcotane]

Last week MSNZ changed the regulations to include a greater range of ethanol blended fuels, you can now run any commercially available blend up to 85% provided that it meets requirements set out in the fuel specification chart.

View the amendment here http://motorsport.org.nz/assets/Uploads ... mbined.pdf

This is great news for those who are reluctant to run E85 due to the consumption increase and associated increased fuel system requirements.

This is also a bonus for those in South Island who are deprived of E10 as the regulations now allow us to provide 98 octane E10 as drummed product whereas previous restriction limited it to petrol station forecourt E10 only. More importantly it now give those in the Southland region a 98 octane fuel option.

We will be officially releasing a race spec 98 octane E10 option next month however it is currently available if there are any overly enthusiastic people who cant wait and provided that testing is completed in time we will also have an E50 blend available.

More info on all these products will appear on our website over the next couple of weeks.

http://alcotane.co.nz/?page_id=121 also contains some results from E30 and E85 along with general ethanol fuel information.

[matt dunn]

From your website

We ended this test at the 72 hour mark as the hygroscopic properties of the ethanol meant that water absorption would effect the results. We are in the process of photographing a term test using cast aluminium samples in sealed containers.

With the hygroscopic properties of ethanol,
in say an E85 blend, how long will it last once it is open to the atmosphere before it has an effect on the fuel,

i.e. If we had a 200L drum,
but only used 40L an event,
and only did an event every month,
by the time you get to use the last of it 5 months later,
will it have absorbed enough water to make an effects?

And also will sitting in an alloy in car tank, which has a breather open to the atmosphere for a month between events casue any issues over time?

[Dunny]

Yes - I saw this amendment and it's good news

I too would be interested to know the answers to what Matt has asked

Also can you provide a bit of info what Ethanol percentage requies some fuel system changes - ie I know E85 pretty much requires specific fuel line and associated changes, with a fuel system flush recommended after each event, especially for carbs.

Is it ok to run say E30 without any fuel system changes over a standard set up? What's the max compression ratio recommended with E30?

Likewise what fuel system changes would be required with E50, and what compression ratio would be applicable.

I'm running twin sidedraughts with VERY high compression ratio, but don't want the hassle and expense of changing my whole fuel system, and flusing after each event to run E85.

The lower percentage blend options seem more suited to my requirements

Cheers

[Alcotane]

in say an E85 blend, how long will it last once it is open to the atmosphere before it has an effect on the fuel

The length of time depends on many variables but mainly temperature and humidity.

The easiest way to know if your fuel has been seriously effected by atmospheric moisture is to look for phase separation. To do this you will need to shake the fuel vigorously and inspect a sample. If the fuel appears milky then you will have phase separation. I will do an example today or tomorrow and upload some images so that you know what it looks like.

This test is obviously harder to do when the fuel is in the tank as it is hard to shake a car vigorously. In this instance the best method is to take a sample from the top of the fuel cell and then one from the bottom. Provided that petroleum soluble dies have been used phase separation will be easily identified if the two samples are different colours. If you are unsure by this method mix the two samples, shake them and look for the milky appearance.

If you want to determine your fuel quality we will soon be selling Spec Chec alcohol fuel test kits, these will enable you to quickly test various aspects of your fuel.

We use a very dry ethanol in our blends, this is generally tolerant to 20% water in an E85 blend. As far as time storage goes we rate the fuels as having a 6 month shelf life if stored correctly, this is not so much due to the hygroscopic properties of the ethanol but more so the gum formation in the petroleum component.

also will sitting in an alloy in car tank, which has a breather open to the atmosphere for a month between events casue any issues over time?

We don't recommend long term storage in fuel tanks, but having said that we don't drain our tanks and have never had a phase separation problem, even after several months of storage. With regard to the tank being alloy Alcotane fuels have a pHe stabilizing additive that inhibits the corrosive properties of ethanol when in contact with aluminum.

can you provide a bit of info what Ethanol percentage requies some fuel system changes - ie I know E85 pretty much requires specific fuel line and associated changes, with a fuel system flush recommended after each event, especially for carbs.

We have had several people tune their cars to our E30 but as E50 is a new product I don't have any "real world" results for it. With E30 you are typically looking at up to a 10% increase in fuel system demand, your fuel lines will need to be ethanol rated (this is the case with all ethanol blends)

As far as flushing the system goes, I personally believe it's a waste of time with Alcotane products due to the effectiveness of the additive. As long as you are running ethanol rated fuel lines then you should be fine. We have never flushed our systems and have had no problems.

As an indication E30 is suitable for static compression ratios up to 12:1, E50 for up to 14:1 and E85 for up to 16:1. This is largely a guideline and can vary greatly depending on your specific application.

[Alcotane]

Have just updated our info page with phase separation examples for you guys to take a look at.

http://alcotane.co.nz/?page_id=121

[2jayzgte]

Can someone please enlighten me why they have actually banned Avgas.I don't get it I saw a article with the V8 supercars and fuel over the Bathurst distance and they reckon the saving was something like 3% over the race distance vs the old race fuel they used to use but it added up to 2 extra fuel stops because the cars actually use more of this new ethonol based fuel.

[matt dunn]

They haven't actually banned avgas,

they have banned all leaded fuels which includes avgas,

and there is a long story as to why and when it was announced.


If it takes approximatly 20% water content to cause phase separation,
that woul be 200mls of water in 1L of petrol?
Or 20% of the 85% of E85 which would be about 170mls in 1 litre.


Even at 100mls/litre, if there is that much water in the fuel that would have to have some effect on the performance and tuning of the car?
It's like basically running 10% leaner that it was with fresh stuff?

Or am I not understanding it right?

[Alcotane]

no your quite right matt. The 20% is the absolute limit where the fuel is quite obviously unusable and it would result in quite a difference to the fuel properties. While I have never tested it personally I believe that the water content actually increases the octane (similar to water-methanol injection principal) and causes the vehicle to run slightly leaner.

The flip side is that 20% is a hell of a lot of water for the fuel to absorb, we have left ethanol samples sitting round in open air for weeks and they only absorb 2-3%. The worst sample was left for 4 weeks and contained just over 5%. I'm not in any way saying not to seal your fuel drum, as climate, region, storage location and a bunch of other things come into it. Plus no water is better than a little water and an open drum is just dangerous.

The best thing to do is test your fuel for water content, the Spec Chec stuff that we will be selling has a water content tester for the various blends.

If you dont want to front up for a tester you can carry out a rather primitive test yourself. THIS FORMULA ONLY APPLIES TO E85!!!

1) Measure out 80ml of E85 into an accurate 100ml measuring cylinder

2) Slowly add water, stopping regularly to mix.

3) As you approach saturation it will become harder and harder for the mixture to become transparent during mixing. Add a very small amount more water very slowly until the sample turns milky.

4) Note the level on the measuring cylinder, if you are at 100ml it means that you had virtually no water in the sample, if you are at 95ml it means that you had approximately 5% water 90ml = 10% 85ml =15%.

Its not the most scientific method and there is a fair amount of room for error however it gives you some guideline to the water content of your fuel.

Now that i have told you all that I doubt I can sell any of you a Spec Chec water content test but at least I know all the Toyota's will be running good fuel. And if anyone leaks this to a Honda forum I'll be disappointed!!!

[MAGN1T]

Checking the specific gravity with a hydrometer would make more sense.

Same as making homebrew spirit. The scale might be a bit different though.


edit, ethanol has sg of .79,
petrol about .73
water is 1 so a $20 hydrometer from the homebrew shop would do nicely.

Steve

[Malcolm]

no your quite right matt. The 20% is the absolute limit where the fuel is quite obviously unusable and it would result in quite a difference to the fuel properties. While I have never tested it personally I believe that the water content actually increases the octane (similar to water-methanol injection principal) and causes the vehicle to run slightly leaner.

Yep, water will increase the octane rating of the fuel - back in the turbo days of F1 some teams experimented with fuels with water emulsions for specifically this reason. Unfortunately it also reduces the specific energy/energy density of the fuel (at least in terms of energy released from combustion), so whether you have a positive or negative net effect is hard to know without testing. I do, however, think with the right development one could use this property of ethanol to their advantage and intentionally increase the water content of their fuel

[Alcotane]

Checking the specific gravity with a hydrometer would make more sense.

You can use a hydrometer to get an indication of water content, the only problem with this is the specific gravity of petrol typically varies between 0.72 and 0.77. As we blend Alcotane fuels by weight, this is the reason why we have to test the specific gravity of fuel before blending.

This variance essentially means that testing by SG will give a water content reading that is +/- 5%

[strx7]

Can someone please enlighten me why they have actually banned Avgas.I don't get it I saw a article with the V8 supercars and fuel over the Bathurst distance and they reckon the saving was something like 3% over the race distance vs the old race fuel they used to use but it added up to 2 extra fuel stops because the cars actually use more of this new ethonol based fuel.

All leaded petrols have been phased out, since it was anounced some 4/5 years ago that it was going to happen, it is basically motorsport's (both FIA and MNZ) way of showing they are caring for the environment and are concerned about gas emissions.

[MAGN1T]

If the greenies got onto it they'd probably call every racetrack a contaminated area and close them.
It's pretty serious really when you think about it.

Steve