dry sump setup.

[bzrspeed]

Hi,
as you know i am in the middle of a build in my lada 2105 sedan. I am installing the dry sump setup into the car and the pump onto the engine. It is a 4 stage system driving off the aluxary 1" belt. The issue is what ratio should i use on the pump? I have a few different pullies. From 1.23:1 to 2.4:1 to 3.1: to 4:1

Engine will have 180hp and rev to 8000rpm.

I have never used a dry sump setup before and the instructions are in hungarian.

I am assuming it goes:
tank
pump
oil cooler
block
scraper
sump
pump
oil filter
oil cooler
tank

is that correct?

[matt dunn]

Have not delt with them myself either really,

but i would guess there is a maximum RPM the dry sump pump will handle?
Factor that in with your engine absolute maximum rpm with a little bit in reserve and start from there??????

[bzrspeed]

the pump will flow 10l per 1000rpm of engine speed. So maximum rpm of 8000rpm means 80l/min.

Tank is 5.5l which should be fine.

And while i posting. I am order a fuel pump.
I worked out i need a minimum of 27.08 gal per hour. What is the math for Lph?

[Grrrrrrr!]

US gallons or Real (UK) Gallons?

[bzrspeed]

uk gallons.

The idea is to build the fuel system to cope with double the expected power output level.

The engine will be running throttle body injection.

[Grrrrrrr!]

27.1 Imperial Gallons is 120 Litres in round numbers.


Dont forget to check the pump will provide this at whatever pressure you need to run your fuel rail at at WOT/Full boost.

[Snaps]

For Oil pump:

I would have thought you need to get enough and Oil Pressure, rather than a certain oil flow rate?

Somone else can probably confirm decent pressures for this, but I think (from memory), about 50psi/3-4bar would be a good pressure. I don't think the flowrate of the oil should matter too much, as you really only need the pressure as far as I remember (doesn't matter anywhere near as much how much oil is flowing around the engine, as long as you have enough pressure there for it to get where it needs to go - into bearings, etc.)???

but i would guess there is a maximum RPM the dry sump pump will handle?
Factor that in with your engine absolute maximum rpm with a little bit in reserve and start from there??????

This sounds about right. Take the maximum RPM the pump will handle, and gear it down/up (with the right pulley ratio), so the pump doesn't run faster than it's supposed to at the maximum engine RPM of 8000, add a bit of a safety factor and you should be right, just make sure you're getting enough pressure...

the pump will flow 10l per 1000rpm of engine speed. So maximum rpm of 8000rpm means 80l/min.

I would say you shouldn't be going off of this, if you don't know the pulley ratio. This is because if you don't know the pulley ratio, you don't know how fast the pump is spinning. If you cause the pump to turn more slowly (by changing the pulley and therefore the gearing), you'll change how fast the pump spins in relation to the engine, and will therefore change the amount of oil the pump flows at a certain engine RPM.

[bzrspeed]

the oil pressure should be fine. Pump is set for 50psi at 960rpm and 82psi under load but can go upwards of 100psi which i think may damage bearings.. The rule of thumb is 10psi per 1000rpm isnt it? The pump is used for chevy v8 race engines so a 4cy 2000cc road engine will have no issues.l

Just need to figure out what ratio to run. The faster i spin it the more psi of pressure and the larger the scavange/pump ratio is. As i understand the higher the number the more effective it is?

[Grrrrrrr!]

the oil pressure should be fine. Pump is set for 50psi at 960rpm and 82psi under load but can go upwards of 100psi which i think may damage bearings.. The rule of thumb is 10psi per 1000rpm isnt it? The pump is used for chevy v8 race engines so a 4cy 2000cc road engine will have no issues.l

Just need to figure out what ratio to run. The faster i spin it the more psi of pressure and the larger the scavange/pump ratio is. As i understand the higher the number the more effective it is?

Sorry, but that just doesn't make sense. If you dont know the pulley ratio you can't possibly know what the oil pressure is going to be.

Unless you know the volume of oil being pushed by the pump, and the restriction the engines oil system provides you only know what pressure you have set the relief valve for.

[bzrspeed]

the manafacture has said the oil pump on the engine at the standard ratio of 3.1 sump/pump would give 50psi at idle of 960rpm and 82psi under load. But that is for full race versions of the engine making upwards of 300hp. I will be making 180hp so am thinking it might be too much. I have never setup this type of system before.

The question is do i raise the ratio or decrease the ratio? I have 5 pullies here. I was told the larger the figure the better it is as touring cars and f1 cars run upwards of 8:1.

The pump has a maximum rpm of 4400rpm and will be run at half engine speed, so 4000rpm.

[Grrrrrrr!]

The amount of HP the engine makes doesn't affect oil pressure. Same engine should produce same oil pressures unless you are running different bearing clearances or some other changes in the lubrication system. Other factor is how hot the oil gets. A full race engine will get the oil a bit hotter but you would assume they also run oil coolers...

80 psi relief valve setting sounds like a fairly normal setting, and with cold oil you will definately see over 100psi, its not going to be a problem.

[7ishNZ]

There should be an adjustable pressure relief valve on the pump. Set it for about 60 psi with warm oil and you will be fine.

The order should be tank-pump -cooler to filter to engine, scavenge to tank. If you run -12 lines, you can put the cooler in the scavenge to tank line. It pays to have a coarse filter on the scavenge to tank line as well.

I run my pump with a 19:28 pulley setup.

Hope that helps.

[bzrspeed]

i have run -12 lines. I want to run a 12 row on the intake side and a 10 row just after filter.

The pump has an adjustable pressure regulator.

I have put in all the lines, the oil tank in the boot. Does it need to be covered by a box type thing? Or am i able to leave it in the boot un covered?

[7ishNZ]

The theory with coolers is that the hotter the oil, the better they work. If you run a 12 row on the scavenge line, you probably won't need the other one.

[Snaps]

The pump has a maximum rpm of 4400rpm and will be run at half engine speed, so 4000rpm.

This is getting close. If the maximum pump rpm is 4400rpm, that is the maximum speed it can go safely - giving you the minimum pulley ratio you can use without running the pump too fast. (minimum ratio would be 1.82:1 ratio of engine speed:pump speed, i.e. pump running about 1/2 as fast as engine, or pump pulley about twice the size of engine pulley used to turn the pump), going any ratio smaller than this will run the pump too fast (i.e 1.23:1 ratio is un-useable).

the manafacture has said the oil pump on the engine at the standard ratio of 3.1 sump/pump would give 50psi at idle of 960rpm and 82psi under load. But that is for full race versions of the engine making upwards of 300hp. I will be making 180hp so am thinking it might be too much. I have never setup this type of system before.

I'm with Grrrrrr!, I don't think the different power should affect the oil pressure too much - you still need a decent amount of pressure when the engine is running, regardless of how much power the engine is making. The 3.1:1 is within the threshold of the maximum rpm of the pump, and as the manufacturer says, this will produce enough (82psi) pressure under load.

The question is do i raise the ratio or decrease the ratio? I have 5 pullies here. I was told the larger the figure the better it is as touring cars and f1 cars run upwards of 8:1.

I think the 3.1:1 ratio will be fine - it will mean the pump will not be running too fast (2580rpm at 8000 engine rpm), and according to the manufacturer, will produce sufficient oil pressure under load.

Using a higher ratio may not produce enough pressure (hard to tell without testing it), and using a smaller ratio will just be running the pump faster/harder (and causing more drag/power loss) for any engine speed.

[bzrspeed]

can i pick your brain for a second snaps?I have just run a 3.6mm od steel braided hose from the boot to the engine comparment, then to the splitter and then to 4 150psi solinoids, one for each cylinder. my question is will this system take too long to purge then if i used 1.7mm nylon pipe? It is a 125hp setup. Its a wet setup so the gas will mix with fuel when injected.

[Snaps]

Hmm, I haven't had a lot of experience with what you seem to be asking about. I'm training as an engineer (University), so I have knowledge in some areas, but I'm still far from knowing everything I need to. Most of the things I will say here are educated guesses based on experience and what I've learned, and so you should make sure you check with someone else that KNOWS what they are doing before you take anything I say as true!

Edit: This is for your water injection system?

Anyway, so you're injecting a gas (vapor) into a fuel (liquid) at pressure? Or is this a pnuematic system in which you need 150psi at the solenoids for them to actuate, at which point pressure will bleed off, and you're asking if the pipes will flow enough to re-pressurise the system fast enough? I'm basically asking what you mean by "will this system take too long to purge"?

Does each solenoid open in turn (ie. one solenoid open at any time, not all four at once?)?