98 vs E85 - is E85 viable?

[diss7]

One thing I would like to know from all of you who are willing is how much you would all support Alcotane products on the pump at locations around the country. It is something we are looking at doing over the next 6 months and it is always good to get some feedback.

If there was one station within a 30km radius with better fuel, I would travel to it and only fill up there. Many like-minded people would do the same. It doesn't have to be everywhere (don't get me wrong, it would be great if it was!)

[strx7]

I've done the Survey. Hopefully there is enough demand to make it viable.

[Lith]

The most prevalent issues with E85 are the increase in consumption, cold starting, the potential for water contamination and incompatibility with certain elastomer's (rubber or plastic like bits). Most of the other problems are rectified through the addition of chemical additives.

Hiya,

In terms of the cold starting - can you be more specific? How cold, or what kind of starting issues should one consider "reasonable" on E85?

[Alcotane]

It doesn't have to be everywhere (don't get me wrong, it would be great if it was!)

I would love to put it everywhere but getting it into existing stations is near impossible as the big boys have control over them. Our plan is unmanned tanks with credit card payment facilities at motorsport venues and with each site being at least 90K to set up we have to be selective.

Should hopefully be able to put one in Christchurch for ya at some point. Make sure you do the survey as the areas that get these tanks first will be the ones who express the most interest and are deemed to be the most viable.

In terms of the cold starting - can you be more specific? How cold, or what kind of starting issues should one consider "reasonable" on E85?

Cold starting issues arise as ethanol has a high latent heat of vaporisation (about 2.5 times that of petrol) and high flash point.

The flash point of a substance is the minimum temperature at which it will begin to vaporise. Petrol has a flash point of <-40 degrees, pure ethanol is 13 degrees and E85 is <-15 degrees. As the temperature increases between the flash point and the boiling point the volume of vapour produced in a given time period increases.

When the fuel vaporises is consumes energy equal to the latent heat of vaporisation and cools the air, this is why ethanol fuels ensure the intake air charge is cooler and denser. You can actually feel this phenomenon when you get fuel on your hand.

In an engine environment there are several factors that help to vaporise the fuel; ambient air temperature, compression and the heat in the engine itself. The issue is that there is only a limited amount of each and the fuel is consuming a portion of the energy as it is produced.

So in piratical terms, on a cold morning there is very little energy in the air or engine parts to permit the fuel to change state so it relies on heat from compression and spark to get it going. The result of this is that you need to crank the engine a lot more to build up heat in the engine and provide the required energy for vaporisation.

I have found that in most circumstances you can almost eliminate this problem through good tuning and you can definitely reduce the problem. The ideal is to ensure that the fuel map is leaner on a cold start, worst case scenario is the fuel that doesn't manage to change state can build up and essentially flood the engine.

We are in the process of testing an additive that acts as a combustion catalyst and will hopefully resolve or at least substantially reduce this problem.

[Lith]

Cold starting issues arise as ethanol has a high latent heat of vaporisation (about 2.5 times that of petrol) and high flash point.

So in piratical terms, on a cold morning there is very little energy in the air or engine parts to permit the fuel to change state so it relies on heat from compression and spark to get it going. The result of this is that you need to crank the engine a lot more to build up heat in the engine and provide the required energy for vaporisation.

Cheers, yeah I realise that - I was more looking for an indication of what acceptable was I've a little bit of ethanol blend tuning now... here is a clip of a S14 running a flex-fuel setup (GM Flexfuel sensor + G4Link) I tuned doing a bone-cold start on a cold morning:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ3x9jP5vZI

[Alcotane]

Yeah sorry, I like to get as much accurate info out in the public arena as possible so sometimes I can get a bit carried away with the tech info side of things.

I cant really say for sure what acceptable is because there are so many factors involved. For instance; if you had a 8.5:1 compression ratio, crap spark plugs, a piss poor ignition system and its tuned for a rich start on E85 you may as well not bother with winter season racing.

Looking at the video I think that you should be happy with that level of starting performance, with a coolant temp of 17 and air temp of 19 its not the coldest that you could expect but that was a quick and trouble free start.

Just curious though, have you been keeping the ethanol in the fridge because I wouldn't expect the fuel to be 15 degrees colder than the coolant.

[Lith]

Cheers - car is an S14 with a stock SR20DET in it (8.5:1), have done a Honda with near 13:1 compression and that was definitely easier to convince to start.

That fuel temp thing is something quirky we've not sussed out with the sensor/the G4's processing of the signal from the sensor. It clearly isn't going to be that temperature, but at this stage I am doing no fuel trimming (I actually have no overlay tables free to do so - so it would be a problem if I wanted to... it would be nice if Link had a userdefinable 3d map for cranking enrichment etc) based off fuel temp so its not affecting the tune. The ethanol content reading is accurate, though.

[Mr Ree]

Thanks alot for posting up all the info, Alcotane.

I completed the survey too, I would love to see tanks at Manfeild, Taupo, and HD, but being able to get it for street driving would be good too as then one tune fits all

[Alcotane]

That fuel temp thing is something quirky we've not sussed out with the sensor/the G4's processing of the signal from the sensor.

Not sure what type of sensor you are using but if it is a thermocouple type and electrically exposed to the fuel there could be a possibility of conductivity or dielectric constant properties of the fuel effecting the reading.

Thanks alot for posting up all the info, Alcotane.

No Problems, its good to see people taking an interest and I'm more than happy to answer any questions relating to fuel, even the dumb ones. If you have a question that you think may be a tad dumb and are afraid to ask here feel free to call on the 0800 or pm.

We are making a series of tech videos with fuel info at the moment, I have found that when I type everything up and put it online people don't tend to take the time to read it so decided that videos would fix this problem. The first of these will be available when our new site is launched next month.

[iOnic]

If you guys have a site in Feilding/near Manfeild I'm sure you'll do well. I'll do the survey later when I'm not on my phone.

[Lith]

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/Q7JBBPN. all questions are optional.

Cheers for all the info etc - and hope you can make this work for you, and us obviously. Have passed that link around

[Alcotane]

Thanks to those who have completed the survey and a massive thanks to those who have passed it along. Have just made a banner for the Alcotane site with a link to the survey so hopefully this will bring in some more responses.

South Island is looking a little under represented though.

[Flannelman]

Alcotane, you should try get hold of the ethanol Lanza Tech is producing. If its made from waste gasses it should undercut the current fermentation processes by a fair margin.

Because its made in New Zealand it should be a stable price too so no silly global demand or nz dollar excuses for price hikes.

[Mr Ree]

Alcotane, you should try get hold of the ethanol Lanza Tech is producing. If its made from waste gasses it should undercut the current fermentation processes by a fair margin.

Because its made in New Zealand it should be a stable price too so no silly global demand or nz dollar excuses for price hikes.

likes ^

[Alcotane]

Yeah I would love to, I spoke with the LanzaTech guys several years ago and was incredibly impressed at the concept of using syngas for ethanol production. Unfortunately LanzaTech is focussed on the development of the technology and not the commercial sale of ethanol, as such the majority of the ethanol they produce is simply tested and discarded.

Ideally I would like to build a manufacturing plant that uses the LanzaTech process, theoretically I could then deliver higher quality fuels at prices well below that on the pump. But unless someone has a spare 10-20 million I cant see this happening in the near future.

[Flannelman]

Sad as that anyone with the spare cash rolling around to fund such a venture would want mega dollar returns, driving the pump price up.

Greed sucks as its unsustainable.

Could ask the government... (yea, right)

[Celica RA45]

just remember guys if you are only using this fuel ,for a track car make sure your fuel tank is nearly empty and add 50mm of 2 stroke in the last bit of fuel as this will help
let it idle for a couple of minutes with 2 stroke and this will help with the water in the fuel and it wont rust the bores as much .

[Mr Ree]

Adding 2 stroke oil to the tank takes me back to my teenage years with an rx2 hehe

[BlakeNZ]

yeah well i bet you wish you still had that RX2- have you seen the prices lately?!!!

[Mr Ree]

Filled the A80 last week with 98, I tried not to look, but caught a glimpse and think it was about $2.35 a litre, and cost me just over $150 to fill up, give or take a few clams, of course...

*sniffs*