Not a Toyota - Ford Falcon BA problems

[cat007]

Hey all

Not a Toyota - but an engine's and engine and they all rely on the same basic principal!

Just trying to get my '04 Futura running as nice as I can, and I've been having a whole bunch of headaches because of it.

One or more of the injectors were leaking meaning fuel was seeping into the intake after shutoff causing hard starting after an hour or so of being stopped.

I took the injectors to Petroject and forked out $310 to get all 6 cleaned and filters/o-rings replaced. They didn't give me a report at the end of it. I put the injectors in and within about 2 minutes of driving the car developed a horrible miss and starting smoking out the exhaust.

I get home to find a pool of oil collecting under the exhaust manifold (see pic at bottom of this post).

I took the injectors out after confirming all 6 plugs and coils were ok and found 1 was stuck pretty full open, and another was stuck open a little. I pulsed 12v on them about a dozen times - after the 4th or 5th the injector starting clicking like it should and it was actually closing properly.

I installed back in the car and it ran like a dream. All the oil in the exhaust burned off (which is another issue I really want to figure out - how the hell did oil get INTO the exhaust manifold? Possibly over fuelling causing oil to be sucked into the cylinder?) - and all seemed well - for a while. Later that afternoon I thought I'd take it out again and get it nice and hot and see what breaks. After I'd driven it around for half an hour and everything was hot I booted it up a steep hill and it had a horrible miss above 2,000rpm which didn't go away until over 5,000rpm when the auto changed. It wasn't so much a constant stutter as more of a surging - power could come then go then come then go etc etc...

Was thinking it could the coil packs breaking down? This car runs a coil on plug setup. Possibly some of the injectors are still a bit clogged - so there's a starvation of fuel causing a lean miss?

Here's the pool of oil from earlier:

[AE82 FXGT]

Are you sure thats oil?

Could be carbon from exhaust mixed with water, which is leaking from that join in the manifold.

Check the viscosity of it, if it's like water I'd say it's an exhaust leak.

[Crucible]

It does sound like a coil pack breaking down.

May save some time and guess work to get it scanned. Most cars will give a missfire count and show what cyl is at fault, couldnt be certain with fords though. A crook injector would probley bring on the check light as it would force the fuel trims way + or - , intermittent crook injector may not show up and electrically would prob need to be checked with a scope.

Otherwise youd have to find the problem the old fashioned way of fitting new coilpack to each cyl at a time until you find the prob. That is if the wiring, ie pow and trigger, plugs etc are fine?.

[cat007]

Are you sure thats oil?

Could be carbon from exhaust mixed with water, which is leaking from that join in the manifold.

Check the viscosity of it, if it's like water I'd say it's an exhaust leak.

Now that you mention it I think it was fuel mixing with carbon. The consistency wasn't thick enough to be oil and my oil is brand new (few hundred km's on it) and is golden still, not sooty black.
. Good thinking!

[matt dunn]

No they dont give you a cylinder missfire which is a PITA.

have done quite a few of them lately.

First thing I suggest is buy a new set of spark plus, and the re-gap them before you fit them.

They should be 1.3mm if you buy the right ones,
and gap them down to less than 1.0mm.
around 0.8 - 0.9.

Fixes 80% of BA falcon missfires.

[cat007]

It does sound like a coil pack breaking down.

May save some time and guess work to get it scanned. Most cars will give a missfire count and show what cyl is at fault, couldnt be certain with fords though. A crook injector would probley bring on the check light as it would force the fuel trims way + or - , intermittent crook injector may not show up and electrically would prob need to be checked with a scope.

Otherwise youd have to find the problem the old fashioned way of fitting new coilpack to each cyl at a time until you find the prob. That is if the wiring, ie pow and trigger, plugs etc are fine?.

Yeah I'm thinking it's a coil pack. Although I'm pretty sure the injectors are still not firing or closing properly as it's a little hard to start after being left for about an hour.

I've changed the fuel filter this arvo and the surging is still there. Only does it when you really hoof it which does seem like a coil pack or spark thing. The plugs looked ok the other day but with all this crap the engines been through the last few days I should probably take them out and see what they look like. Don't really want to fork out +$100 for new plugs if the ones in there are ok.
Although other than looking at them, it's pretty hard to tell if a plug is breaking down at high load....?

[Crucible]

If the plugs are fouled it does pay to replace them rather than clean and refit as they can still play up which will throw you in the wrong direction. In the past i have fitted standard plugs to customers cars when they cant afford harder wearing platnum/Iridium types. Call repco and see if your plugs will cross over.

As far as checking injectors for leakage youll need to tee in a fuel pressure gauge and see if the pressure drops off while sitting. If It does drop crimp the regulator return just to make sure its not the reg.

IMO if you had one or two that were weaping it would still fire up straight away as the pump primes the rail almost instantly and it would still fire on other unflooded cylinders. Pretty unlikely most are leaking if they have just been cleaned, flooding engine completely.

Sounds like matt has had experiance with fords in the past, maybe go for plugs first as he suggests then go from there.

[phoenix]

For spark plugs I just cross reference to Denso, then usually buy coppers through Mark for about $3 each.

[matt dunn]

For spark plugs I just cross reference to Denso, then usually buy coppers through Mark for about $3 each.

Cant remember exactly,

but the genuine ford plugs from the dealer are Denso specials,
and are only about $13 each?

[cat007]

For spark plugs I just cross reference to Denso, then usually buy coppers through Mark for about $3 each.

Cant remember exactly,

but the genuine ford plugs from the dealer are Denso specials,
and are only about $13 each?

These are the recommended ones - not too expensive really:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/car-par ... 191363.htm

[cat007]

If the plugs are fouled it does pay to replace them rather than clean and refit as they can still play up which will throw you in the wrong direction. In the past i have fitted standard plugs to customers cars when they cant afford harder wearing platnum/Iridium types. Call repco and see if your plugs will cross over.

As far as checking injectors for leakage youll need to tee in a fuel pressure gauge and see if the pressure drops off while sitting. If It does drop crimp the regulator return just to make sure its not the reg.

IMO if you had one or two that were weaping it would still fire up straight away as the pump primes the rail almost instantly and it would still fire on other unflooded cylinders. Pretty unlikely most are leaking if they have just been cleaned, flooding engine completely.

Sounds like matt has had experiance with fords in the past, maybe go for plugs first as he suggests then go from there.

I'm about to try and start the car after it was run a couple of hours ago - if it's fine then perhaps my last clean with carb cleaner and also changing the fuel filter has made a difference. If the problem remains I was going to go for a drive, get it up to temp again then take the rail out of the head with the injectors in place (they are clipped in so they hold into the injector rail without being in the head) and put some paper towel under each one and check it in another hour or so and see if there's signs of leakage onto the towel....

[cat007]

Ok so the car was hesitant to start again - I wish I video'd it. Maybe tomorrow I'll do that.

I quickly pulled the injectors out of the head - leaving the injectors still in the pressurised fuel rail and put some paper towel under them.

2 of them (not the 2 that I was having issues with originally) seeped a very small amount of fuel onto the paper towel - but really not much - I left it for about 10-15 mins which would normally be enough time for the car to have starting problems - and watching it all the time but I couldn't see any more fuel on the paper towel. The problem is the engine is hot, so it could just be evaporating as fast as it's leaking out of the injector(s).

I noticed when I took it for the drive to get everything warm - that the sluggishness/surging/miss doesn't just happen when you floor it - but even when you go about 1/2-2/3's throttle.

I've run out of time tonight, but I'll take the plugs out tomorrow and have a good look at them and try and take some pics.

[allencr]

What's the compression?
Wadda the plugs look like?
Just close up the gap on whatever is in there to reduce the load on the coil/s, cause surging isn't an inadequate spark symptom and that'll prove it.
There is no such thing as copper spark plugs, only a bit in there for advertising BS.

[d1 mule]

There is a guy who has commented on this post who has experience with this sort of problem on this sort of car and you still havnt taken his advice.

you have it set in your head that fuel is the problem and have blinkers on for other potential causes.

CHANGE THE BLOODY PLUGS AND GAP THEM AS PER MATT DUNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

then come back here....

[cat007]

haha you're so demanding!

Ok have taken the plugs out - took a photo of each side and measured the current gap.

Here's how the panned out:

Plug 1 was: ~1.6mm
Plug 2 was: ~1.5mm
Plug 3 was: ~1.5mm
Plug 4 was: ~1.6mm
Plug 5 was: ~1.6mm
Plug 6 was: ~1.5mm

Here's the photo's - 2 per plug, starting at 1:

Plug 1:





Plug 2:





Plug 3:





Plug 4:





Plug 5:





Plug 6:





Any comments?

I've re-gapped them all to 0.85mm and about to go for a test drive....

[phoenix]

Any comments?

Replace them

First thing I suggest is buy a new set of spark plugs
.......
gap them down to less than 1.0mm.
around 0.8 - 0.9.

Fixes 80% of BA falcon missfires.

And listen to this guy.

[matt dunn]

Any comments?

The gap is probably more important than the condition.

A new plug with too big a gap is more likely to miss
then an old plug with a small gap.

1.6mm ?? It's a wonder it hasn't also damaged the coils.

[cat007]

Any comments?

The gap is probably more important than the condition.

A new plug with too big a gap is more likely to miss
then an old plug with a small gap.

1.6mm ?? It's a wonder it hasn't also damaged the coils.

Yeah - the gap was crazy when I saw them

They're Ford branded - I doubt they're original - but could be! The car's at 215km's - and was serviced by Ford up until 185km's then serviced by some 'local'.
Regapped to .85mm and she purrs like a dream.

Now I just have to wait an hour and see if it starts without coughing and spluttering - maybe the huge gap was what was causing that too....

Thanks for the help

I'll replace the plugs in a few weeks - just to be sure

[matt dunn]

They're Ford branded - I doubt they're original - but could be! The car's at 215km's - and was serviced by Ford up until 185km's then serviced by some 'local'.
Regapped to .85mm and she purrs like a dream.

They are actually Denso plugs, you can read denso on the steel part of the plug in the photo's.
None of the photo's show the top electrode end on to actually see if they are that bad,
but going by the gap they are probably due to be done.

[Lloyd]

There is no such thing as copper spark plugs, only a bit in there for advertising BS.

Copper started getting used for various reasons in the electrodes, hence they got called copper plugs. Much like platinum plugs have bugger all platinum in them, but that's what they're called.



A lot of the Falcons and Commodores are running standard plug gaps of 1.3, 1.5 and 1.6mm now. Well, for the last 10 years at least anyway. Generally they're just not getting changed until there is an issue, which seems to be in the low 100,000kms. You'll find the gap is getting a bit out of hand by that stage, or the ground electrode is getting rounded off (can't see that in the pics), check the inside of where the spark would be jumping too. It's probably all rounded off.

Have had a few of the GenIII V8s that wont start or even fire with ~130,000kms that are still on their first plus. Literally fine one day and then get towed in the next because no go. The Fords tend to give coil issues before that stage.

You shouldn't need to gap down new ones, cant hurt though. I wouldn't be going any lower than 1mm myself, but each to their own.