mega grunty honda motors

Tranquil · Post by **Tranquil** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 4:09 pm

And in true 'ricer' form (no offence man, had to say it:D) we come back to power output. So yes, I think we all aware of the power output potential of the b16x range. In motorsport, power take's a back seat to reliability, that’s not something I pulled out of my ass, that’s just how it is.

If I was competing in some amateur 'superstock' type formula with short race distance, I too would go for a b16/18. The disadvantages of an open deck & alloy block are not such a big deal with low rpm and short race distance. Infact, they would be an advantage due to less weight, less load on the transmission, suspension. And ofc the inertial advantage that low weight gives to chassis dynamics.

On the other hand, if I was competing in a pro/semi-pro free engine/transmission formula that required me to be at WOT & peak power (6500+ rpm) for very long race distance. 4A-G is the logical choice. And naturally, because its all been done thousands of time before, id be purchasing off the shelf parts, developed over nearly 3 decades of competition. I would expect, and receive TOTAL reliability. Yes, your right. It would cost 10's of thousands. But that’s a small price to pay for 3 decades of component development by the factory.

Like everything in life, you get what you pay for. And you select the correct tool for a specific job
The Honda 1600 & 1800 are absolutely fantastic donk's standard or lightly tickled and provide outstanding value for money. But when your serious about competing you don’t go for what's cheap, you go for what's proven.

Apples / Oranges

Defective · Post by **Defective** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 4:34 pm

Tranquil wrote:And in true 'ricer' form (no offence man, had to say it:D) we come back to power output. So yes, I think we all aware of the power output potential of the b16x range. In motorsport, power take's a back seat to reliability, that’s not something I pulled out of my buttocks, that’s just how it is.

If I was competing in some amateur 'superstock' type formula with short race distance, I too would go for a b16/18. The disadvantages of an open deck & alloy block are not such a big deal with low rpm and short race distance. Infact, they would be an advantage due to less weight, less load on the transmission, suspension. And ofc the inertial advantage that low weight gives to chassis dynamics.

On the other hand, if I was competing in a pro/semi-pro free engine/transmission formula that required me to be at WOT & peak power (6500+ rpm) for very long race distance. 4A-G is the logical choice. And naturally, because its all been done thousands of time before, id be purchasing off the shelf parts, developed over nearly 3 decades of competition. I would expect, and receive TOTAL reliability. Yes, your right. It would cost 10's of thousands. But that’s a small price to pay for 3 decades of component development by the factory.

Like everything in life, you get what you pay for. And you select the correct tool for a specific job
The Honda 1600 & 1800 are absolutely fantastic donk's standard or lightly tickled and provide outstanding value for money. But when your serious about competing you don’t go for what's cheap, you go for what's proven.

Apples / Oranges

well put....

dont agree but thats my own personal bias coming into it... but well put.

Lith · Post by **Lith** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 4:49 pm

Tranquil wrote:And in true 'ricer' form (no offence man, had to say it:D) we come back to power output. So yes, I think we all aware of the power output potential of the b16x range. In motorsport, power take's a back seat to reliability, that’s not something I pulled out of my buttocks, that’s just how it is.

That makes a lot of sense, however is it being open deck really going to be that big a problem on something at atmospheric pressure internally? This is a genuine question, as there are plenty of open deck blocks out there used in motorsport - including endurance style.

The deck would virtually be the only thing that matters to a point, how much of a 4AGE is left behind with a formula atlantic motor is built? Shouldn't it be a credit to the engine builders, whoever makes the components used in the not-factory unit, and the tuner? A heck of a lot must have been changed, because in the experiences I've seen at race/track days 4AGEs don't seem to like a lot of high rev punishment yet aside from someone hooking 2nd at ~140kph I've yet to see a Honda break a motor on a track.

Again these are questions/food for though - can't really argue with a lot of what you have raised. Its nice to have some actual valid points that make you stop and think in favour of going for a 4AGE. I still think you'd have to reach a pretty serious level before that advantage started kicking in however.

Post by **Mr Revhead** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 4:59 pm

4ages love the revs....
what they dont love is not having enough oil mid corner....
simple sump mods/baffling fixes that issue

BWDOWN · Post by **BWDOWN** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 7:20 pm

You cant bring reliability into this. Honda produced (and still are) somewhere in the vicinity of 3 million B16a's and had 1 warrenty claim.

As Lith said I'm yet to see a B16a engine break at many trackdays, Gearboxs on the other hand..

As for your 30 years of motorsport, sure if you wanna spend thousands extra on a 4AGE with parts "proven" and make 2kw's extra on the dyno be my guest... Seems a massive waste of $$ IMO

Lith · Post by **Lith** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 7:34 pm

Hahaha good old american Tacho vids. If nothing else, this has a lot of VTECs...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiFISY-VMKA

And here is a track battle with a bunch of worked NA cars, the Jaccs CRX in here has 230hp in a still 1600cc NA B16A.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QClN9pc2ULM

Logan · Post by **Logan** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 8:45 pm

Tranquil wrote:And in true 'ricer' form (no offence man, had to say it:D) we come back to power output. So yes, I think we all aware of the power output potential of the b16x range. In motorsport, power take's a back seat to reliability, that’s not something I pulled out of my buttocks, that’s just how it is.

At the end of the day 200hp or not it doesnt make up for A. Lack of Handling.....B. Lack of Ability/experience.. (maybe a little bit).....

Post by **Mr Revhead** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 9:57 pm

somewhere in the vicinity of 3 million B16a's and had 1 warrenty claim.

yeah.... right.. and im the queens mum....

anyway...
as per the topic..... lets see the engine!!!

OMG so shiny! · Post by **Dell'Orto** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:04 pm

Lith wrote:Or maybe they're cheap and plentiful enough? What motors are used in Formula Fords again? There are many superior options which could have been used for that, but the dirty Ford motor ended up being the one.

Well it wouldnt exactly be Formula Ford if it had a B16a in there now would it?

matt dunn · Post by **matt dunn** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:14 pm

Mr Revhead wrote:anyway...
as per the topic..... lets see the engine!!!

Lets see proof of a Atlantic 4age and the power produced too then?

Post by **Mr Revhead** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:15 pm

wtf has that got to do with the topic?

matt dunn · Post by **matt dunn** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:42 pm

Mr Revhead wrote:as per the topic..... lets see the engine!!!

What's that going to prove?

Can you tell how much power an engine makes from a photo?

Does showing a honda doing a dyno run in a video prove that it makes the HP stated?

Just because someone show's you a site with a writeup on how to make a 400hp 1600cc honda, does that mean it's possible?

You are looking for the impossible.
Even if they do exist how can you prove it on the net?
That's why I said show me the toyota as you cannot prove it even if it does exist.

deanis · Post by **deanis** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:43 pm

Tranquil wrote:Nice pic of your short block btw. Especially the lovely open deck design… im sure that loves sustained RPM

its a drag/street motor. i dont have the budget for circuit racing. not many people here do. as for the endurance thing, im sure you have seen the petronas (big budget) civics waste everyone at the manfeild endurance races. then go back to malaysia and race for 12 hours and carve up over there too. they use spoon built b16a's.

Tranquil wrote: But when your serious about competing you don’t go for what's cheap, you go for what's proven.

guess petronas doesnt share your ideas.

Post by **Mr Revhead** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:47 pm

this isnt a toyota vs honda thread....

ppl on here said there were 240hp b16as out there.... like heaps
i want to see them
plus other impressive honda engines
some info on how they do it.... head? cams? pistons? etc etc.

i dont really think im being unresonable here

i started this thread with the genuine intent of seeing some impressive honda engines.....
if i wanted to carry on the 4age vs b16a id still be plugging away in the 20v thread.....

Post by **Mr Revhead** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:48 pm

the petronas civics????

details? info?

deanis · Post by **deanis** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:06 pm

they would be fairly stock type r motors. rebuilt by spoon for endurance. just trying to prove that a b16 can go the distance cause tranquil doesnt think they can. sorry for the interruption.

anyway, all the cool honda motors are on honda tech in the allmotor dyno thread. most people list there specs. i posted it before but here it is again: http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1583606&page=1 the guys on here are mostly drag/street cars like mine. most guys dont do high power b16a's in the states as b20's are so cheap its easier to start with more displacement. you can get a b20 here for $375 from strongs (parts company in south auckland) and that will have a start up warranty and 100km on the clock. cheap as chips. b18's can be had for $900 on tardme with about 100km and will bolt straight in where a b16 was with the same computer, engine mounts and gearbox. cheap as chips and an extra 20 horse and more down low torque. its a common swap and a good base to start from.

deanis · Post by **deanis** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:15 pm

just looking through and there is a 200whp b16a on the first page with stock crank and rods.

Ill Will's true 81mm oem B16
Long Block:
'00 SI B16A2
CTR PCT pistoins w/ honda rings std. bore (81mm)
ARP rod Bolts
ARP head studs
OEM head gasket, used 1 piece
Comptech Machine Street port w/ full radius valve job
ITR intake Valves
Portflow springs and retainers
Skunk Stage 2 cams and gears
MemoryFab J's style CarbonFiber Intake
Toda header
STr fuel rail
RC 310cc Injectors
CTR N-1 crank Pulley
Transmission
'00 SI
Kazz LSD
CTR flywheel
ACT Xtreme pressure plate
Clutch Net 6 puck sprung disc
all tuned with a Hondata Stage 3

other upgrades while we were installing the Toda 45mm ITB's include
full size DC2 radiator with custom raditor stays
the new Hondata S300
Upgraded from 310 to 370cc RC injectors
a oil filter relocation kit
full length steel braided clutch line
Spoon Spark Plug wires
a Buddy Club Battery and voltage regulator
new steel braided fuel line stup with an external SX fuel pressure regulator

Snoozin · Post by **Snoozin** » Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:44 am

Mmm, Boost wrote:
Lith wrote:Or maybe they're cheap and plentiful enough? What motors are used in Formula Fords again? There are many superior options which could have been used for that, but the dirty Ford motor ended up being the one.

Well it wouldnt exactly be Formula Ford if it had a B16a in there now would it?

Also, in 1966 when the Formula Ford was created I guess the ol' Kent 1600 was a pretty decent motor.

Post by **Mr Revhead** » Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:28 am

cheers deanis, will look at that when i get more time today

never heard of those civics, would be keen on learning more

RedMist · Post by **RedMist** » Fri Jun 08, 2007 11:31 am

Tranquil wrote:... is the motor spins backwards to pretty much every other motor on the planet. good luck finding a gearbox to bolt it into.

Actually most aftermarket gearboxes will allow for a reverse rotation engine. I suspect the reason the B16 wasnt regulated into formula atlantic was they already had an allocation for an engine basically the same. IE that of a 16 valve, DOHC, 1600cc. And Toyota backed the series.