Engine Seizing Issue

[Akane]

Well if what fivebob said about the 3S engine is essentially an oil cooled engine, then what about the oil squirters for the bottom of the pistons?

high load -> piston expands -> seized motor?


I did have a problem with my car before where I take it for a good blat (0 to 200kph+) then when I come to a coast at the lights it'll just stall and will not start again for 15mins, turns out to be dying battery (does not like to be overcharged somehow?) and a tuning problem (consistant high load and it didn't like it?). I was thinking why my motor would seize up.

[328FTW]

Well if what fivebob said about the 3S engine is essentially an oil cooled engine, then what about the oil squirters for the bottom of the pistons?

high load -> piston expands -> seized motor?


I did have a problem with my car before where I take it for a good blat (0 to 200kph+) then when I come to a coast at the lights it'll just stall and will not start again for 15mins, turns out to be dying battery (does not like to be overcharged somehow?) and a tuning problem (consistant high load and it didn't like it?). I was thinking why my motor would seize up.

Yes I have been considering this. However I've boosted motors without squirters no problemo so dunno why it would suddenly crop up and so violently/suddenly. I was kinda hoping someone could chime in that had similar problems to direct but it's back to going through things like a spider chart. Problem in the middle, possible causes around it with reasons connected to that. Leaves a very broad area to cover and inspect so I guess there will be some long thought once I start inspecting this motor.

Still if the next n/a motor seizes then it is definitely on my tuning. I've been running 98 in it for obvious reasons and can't hear detonation by ear or with det cans. Wait and see I guess

[allencr]

High oil pressure isn't the best thing in the world if the lube isn't thin enough to flow & cool down the parts.
What grade oil is in it? Did this happen with cold oil?
If you've put in thick stuff thinking it'll be better for an old engine, Toyota quality might have given you a few old but still tight bottom ends.
Also, any snake oil additives?

[328FTW]

No snake oil additives. I've had different oils but usually 5w-30 VR1 racing valvoline or 15w-40 oil that I had 200 litres off.

Same stuff that I ran no issues balls to the wall pre seizures. It's why I keep looking at the turbo feed/drain and what my tune could of done. I do however remember it once doing this unloaded at revs with the wastegate apart/no spring so no boost. That was a couple years ago I think? That make very little sense cause unloaded it's very hard to get super high temps, detonation and the likes

I've had it backburner for a while with so many other projects so time goes by fast.

[allencr]

Have these been cleaned/flushed/or had some secret speed trick from an old fart done to it? What's the filter look like?

Too much of that newly released 'stuff' gets embedded in the bearings for them to carry new abuse. The filter may get coated & bypassed valve'd during or after the flushing BS. WAG.

[MAGN1T]

A knocklink would be another good investment. They actually work, unlike relying on your ears.

Steve

[mr30%jr]

i wouldnt be using 3sgte timing and fueling maps on a 3sge stock turbo, there is a fair amount more compression combined with not using stock fueling id just point at massive leaning

basic things like checking what your spark plugs looked like after it locked up would give you a fair idea

did you also look at waterlock? perhaps you F'ed the hG and water got in there

[328FTW]

It is a 3sgte map but that for the most part just accounts for the timing curve on stock cams. Like I said I've pulled timing.

I know a guy with a knock link but I've used it and ultimately that engine blew to bits. I've been checking spark plugs and stuff for any signs of pinging or detonation.




You can see in that motor where there was heaps of detonation before the piston blew to bits (it's a honda motor not a 3s). That was the one with the knocklink although I think it got lean I don't know cause there was no wideband being datalogged on that run, not that there is much to complain about cause it had done 2 seasons at that point and was putting down a lot of power for stock internals.



The motors I'm using always have fresh filters and stuff of the same brand I run on my other racecars. It is just this one problem child. However this run round I can go to pick a part and pick n mix my pistons etc. I've done this before and as long as I'm careful with piston size it works well. I built a 3sgte by going round the yards and finding some pistons that fit and gave the right compression and everything. But I still gotta pull this motor down first before I go too far

[Akane]

A good headset / earphones with an amplifier box connected to a knock sensor and knowing what you're listening to is the best, knocklink don't even come close to it.

[328FTW]

Yeah I'm not a huge fan. I usually use headphones and an amp or a copper tube with a mechanics stethoscope with a bell end to amplify it. The knock link does work alright though.

The sad part through all this is my honda can hand the mk1.5 mr2 it's ass at the moment. It'd probably school my rx7 as well cause it pulls really hard.

[DFECTED]

It sounds funny that everyone thinks this is a oiling issue and reads straight past the best advice. I believe this is not a oiling issue but a issue causing piston expansion. Then you create premature bearing wear because you are trying to crash start it while the piston is seized.

Insufficient ignition timing, pistons get too hot and too big, maybe combined with not enough piston to bore clearance (although it's stock).
Insufficient timing is easy to spot because the exhaust manifold will be glowing, easy to see in the dark.

An EGT gauge would be the best investment to make.

Another way to tell would be to pull a piston and check the sides for scuffing.

Steve

An oiling problem will end up with big end knock, not a seizure.
unless your cams seize, then it'll probably stay dead.
Running too lean causes knock.
You can't usually hear knock on turbo motors.
Then you'll have broken ringlands on the pistons and oiled up plugs.
Pulling the timing back makes the EGT go sky high, along with a glowing exhaust manifold and glowing turbine housing.

Steve

Everything appears normal then it just kinda stops. Temp gauge will shoot up a bit after seizure due to the exhaust manifold head soaking back to the motor but it's still within limits of what I'd call reasonable.

How do the sides of the pistons look?

Steve

They looked alright last motor, normal wear.

However I'll pull this one apart and look at EVERYTHING really closely. Prior to this I could attribute it to other things but this time there was just no good reason other than something is really wrong here

That's the thing, I would assume being a seizure like that I would get 4 corner catching or something but I can't see anything.

Pistons dont have 'normal wear' seized pistons expand down the skirt and leave little evidence once cooled down, the best way to check is to measure them with a micrometer and 'collapsed' pistons will be as little as .02mm down on size compared to the others when measuring the taper

if it were starvation you'd think you'd still get some death rattle before it shit itself entirely though

If there isn't any piston damage, then it won't be the pistons.. galling damage is very obvious. If it were detonation/timing problems to the level Magn1t describes, he'd hear it, it would run like a sack and the top of the piston would look like the surface of the moon. Running bearings at high RPM can only be a lack of oil, or boost spiking which would also damage the piston.

How many RPMs are "very high"? How much boost are you running? Are you seeing at least 10psi oil pressure per 1000rpm? I have seen a similar problem before, older engine though.. 2TGEU with big cams run to 9,000rpm with no oil system modifications, jammed up mid thrash and ran #3 bearing, timing was spot on and no damage to the pistons other than smashed skirts from the crank. If you've raised the factory 3S rpm limit without dialing in the oil pressure to suit then I'd consider that a possible cause of the failures.

What Magn1t describes is the timing too retarded and doesnt cause spots of detonation as if it was too advanced.

Smashed skirts from the crank is a interesting one?

[328FTW]

Micrometer it is then. I have an old inch one somewhere so that might be of some use. The more I look at this the more it looks like pistons, might be time to spend some dosh and look around for some good pistons, don't care if they rattle till warm as long as they are ceramic coated and reflect some heat + lower compression.

The rods and crank are bullet proof except for this issue (that makes no sense lol). I've given 3sge's absolute hell before and they just take and take it. We were pulling 9k every meeting on one gen 2 motor. Was ridiculous and that is even tensional force on the rods not compressive so it would of been hard on it.

Car is still out back waiting, lots of work to do so I keep putting it off. The 4age is pulling strong still so at least I have the backup car. Didn't take the rx7 out cause the meet was wet, 300+hp in wet conditions didn't want to take it out so I'm feeling race deprived.

[RS13]

Smashed skirts from the crank is a interesting one?

Ah yes, my apologies, nightshift owns me! I meant from being contacted by the rod.. as it happens, I still have that piston from when I rebuilt that motor, you can also see just above the gudgeon the displaced metal and chafing from the crank, so I'm half right.



Very bent rod. I'm surprised given that the owner drove it home like this, that its' still in one piece..



I still don't agree that its' the piston seizing. Given that these motors have done at least 150k without seizing, and are tuned slightly rich, I highly doubt that they're getting hot enough to starting nipping in the bore now. I'd also maybe expect to see a bent rod or two if that were the case as well.. my money is still on an oiling problem. OP, I'd still be quite keen to see how you get on with it n/a.. given that the only major hardware in common with these motors is the turbo setup?

[Grotty]

Just read over the whole post, looks to me, you should be looking at your timing and tune. As the motors were running well before turbo. check base timing is correct for the map you "borrowed"

[DFECTED]

There is only damage to that piston because the rod is bent, how did the rod bend.

A micrometer that reads in inches probably wont be accurate enough unless you have a good feel of it. I wouldn't be looking for good pistons until the tune is sorted properly first.

I have seized a couple of motors, 1JZ+T insufficient radiator cooling, boosting it and it would slow down real fast and stall, wait 10mins, start it up and drive for another 10mins, had to do that the whole way back to the workshop. BHG. Happened another time stuck in traffic with no radiator fan.

FJ40 with worked 350 chev, caning it up the gravel road from red rocks to long gulley , temp started climbing, put my foot on the clutch, stalled and seized, took about 30mins before the starter motor turned it over. No problems with the engine after that.

[328FTW]

I have a contact that might be able to get me cheap pistons which is why I'm seriously considering it. That or troll round for a 3sgte that has done a bearing and being parted out cause they are pretty good assuming the stamping in them matches the the block stampings for the bores. Also I know some of the guys round pukekohe at some of the race shops so see stuff come through every now and then. Now that I want it I'll probably never see it now -_-

Been having a monster cleanup of the shop, taken away about 5 tonnes of crap so far. Scrap guys are after the A grade stuff like old blocks, cranks, springs etc Have a tractor to rebuild, another to paint and my rx7 on one lift and the other one is broken. Never ends.