GEN IV 3S-GTE differences

[fivebob]

Here are some of the differences between the Gen III & Gen IV (Caldina) 3S-GTE's, if you have any corresponding Gen III pics feel free to post them.

Starting with the sensors for the direct fire ignition (I'll add more pics as I find more differences)

Cambelt pulley and ignition timing wheel with Magnetic Reluctance sensor


Different head casting showing fitting for cam position sensor(not shown), which also appears to be a magnetic reluctance sensor, but might be hall effect. Also shows different injector bosses for the top feed injectors.


Cam position trip (for sequential injection) Crude but effective. Note plugged Distributor hole, seems only minor mods were done to the casting dies.

[Celica RA45]

looking at your pics same as altezza and na caldina motors gen 4

[anthonym]

looking at your pics same as altezza and na caldina motors gen 4

No, the VVTi heads are completely different, radically different in fact, relative to previous generations.

[anthonym]

Cambelt pulley and ignition timing wheel with Hall Effect sensor

FWIW this setup was carried over to both the single and dual VVTi 3SGEs as well.

Cam position trip (for sequential injection) Crude but effective.

Interesting, the VVTi version is quite a bit more elaborate, as you'd expect I suppose.

[Lanius]

Forgive my humble ignorance, but what is "hall effect" fivebob?
This is some good stuff ...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Gen IV 3SGTE only came out in the Caldina, correct? Not the MR2's?

I've heard that the "gen 4" MR2 GT's and GT-S's came out with the Gen III 3SGTE, the same as the gen 3 MR2's.

Which of the VVTi model 3SGE's did the Gen IV MR2 come out with? The single or dual (If any??)?

Cheers guys!

[fivebob]

Cam position trip (for sequential injection) Crude but effective.

Interesting, the VVTi version is quite a bit more elaborate, as you'd expect I suppose.

Yes I suppose the ECU needs to know the exact position of the cam, not try to imply it from the crank position. At least it would take the variances in belt tension and other factors into consideration. Also means using adjustable cam pulley (if thats even possible) may have little effect, at least with the stock ECU.

[fivebob]

Forgive my humble ignorance, but what is "hall effect" fivebob?

Hall effect sensors will produce square wave output (usually 0-5v), the output is constant regardless of the speed which the trigger passes the sensor. This is different to Toyota's usual magnetic reluctance sensors, which have low output at low speed, causing problems with signal noise. This is why some low end aftermarket ECUs don't support them, require you to remove some teeth and/or don't work very well with them. In short hall effect is a better sensor for aftermarket ECU's.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Gen IV 3SGTE only came out in the Caldina, correct? Not the MR2's?

I've heard that the "gen 4" MR2 GT's and GT-S's came out with the Gen III 3SGTE, the same as the gen 3 MR2's.

That is correct, but to avoid confusion I prefer to reference the model changes as "Series" not "Gen" so Series III,IV & V SW20 turbos came with the Gen III engine.

Which of the VVTi model 3SGE's did the Gen IV MR2 come out with? The single or dual (If any??)?

Series V NA's came with the single vvt engine, not sure if it was VVTi or just VVT as I don't take much notice of NA's but I think it VVTi. I'm sure Nemesis can confirm this.

[Lanius]

Awesome, thanks heaps for that! So the Hall Effect sensor is a TYPE of sensor! *learning *

http://www.micronas.com/products/overvi ... troduction

Yer, I'm not terribly interested in the NA 3S's either (even though my mates G-Limited is a real eye opener with its recent engine conversion to a newer 3SGE), but was curious, as I've been told in the past that there was a Series 4 GT-S that was released with the VVT / VVTi 3SGE ... ?

I've heard conflicting reports on this since then, and am inclined to think that it is just hearsay ... AFAIK all the GT-S's right through to series 4's were turbo'd ...

Man ... the more I think about them, the more I wanna get my hands on one of those Series III GT-S's!! Now just have to convince my friendly bank manager that I'm worth the investment

[anthonym]

but was curious, as I've been told in the past that there was a Series 4 GT-S that was released with the VVT / VVTi 3SGE ... ?

No the GT-S is a turbo model, the NA models were referred to as G or G-limited, the type/series V model was fitted with a single VVTi 200ps 3SGE of which approximately 500 were made. Stock for stock the gen III turbo is the better engine in terms of overall performance; however, I suspect the VVTi head provides a better basis for modification in terms of absoulte power output.

[Lanius]

Sweet, thats what I thought, cheers Nem

Is there any easy way to distinguish between the different series of 3SGE's? I'm becoming more and more curious about the 3SGE thats been installed in my mates MR2. He bought the car privately about 1.5 years ago, and the big end bearing gave out about 3 weeks later He had a rebuild done on the existing engine, and that lasted a year (to the month!) before the big end blew again.

This time he took it to Quest4 Performance, and they installed a 3SGE that was supposedly out of a 2001 Toyota Curren. Since then I've been told there were no Currens released in 2001 ... ?

I'm very interested in finding out what year and model his engine is from, as it is by far the most evil NA engine I've ever heard (has a 5Zigen muffler at the end of what I suspect is a standard exhaust, can be heard from ages away, and has a VERY distinctive almost boxer-like growl to it), and it keeps up with late model WRX's with relative ease! The only mod done to the engine at the time of install was a cold air setup (metal induction pipe, heat shield and pod filter).

Now I'm no expert on either WRX's or MR2's (obviously ), and I know that MR2's have a weight advantage, as well as less power loss through the drivetrain, but surely a decent WRX should be able to pass a G-Limited ... ??

His MR2 is something of a dark horse / mystery ...

[Lanius]

the type/series V model was fitted with a single VVTi 200ps 3SGE

Is the series V the MRS?

[anthonym]

Is there any easy way to distinguish between the different series of 3SGE's?

Grey cam wheel cover = gen II, black cam wheel cover = gen III, both have plain alloy cam covers and distributor ignition. If it's got a plastic cam cover in black or red and direct fire ignition it's a VVTi engine. My money would be on gen III though.

Now I'm no expert on either WRX's or MR2's (obviously ), and I know that MR2's have a weight advantage, as well as less power loss through the drivetrain, but surely a decent WRX should be able to pass a G-Limited ... ??

Not necessarily, WRXs are generally more froth than substance. The early ones go OK (until they fall to bits or poke a leg out the side of the block) because they are relatively light, but the newer ones weigh more than an early model Lardacy. I wouldn't count out an MR2 against either; indeed I've heard worse tales of WRX humilation .

[anthonym]

[Is the series V the MRS?

No, it was the last real MR2 (SW20) before Toyota went after the hairdresser market.

[Lanius]

Grey cam wheel cover = gen II, black cam wheel cover = gen III, both have plain alloy cam covers and distributor ignition. If it's got a plastic cam cover in black or red and direct fire ignition it's a VVTi engine.

Awesome, thanks Will poke around in his engine bay for a while tonight

Not necessarily, WRXs are generally more froth than substance. The early ones go OK (until they fall to bits or poke a leg out the side of the block) because they are relatively light, but the newer ones weigh more than an early model Lardacy. I wouldn't count out an MR2 against either; indeed I've heard worse tales of WRX humilation .

lol ... my ae101 GTZ Levin gave a few of them a damn good scare in stock form. Never like telling those stories though as I often just get the " " look

[Lanius]

[Is the series V the MRS?

No, it was the last real MR2 (SW20) before Toyota went after the hairdresser market.

Sweet ... glad to see I'm not the only one who grimaced when the MR-S came out ...

[Helious]

oooer, i'm learning also :)

[Lanius]

Can anyone tell me the advantages of top-feed vs side-feed injectors in the 3S series? I've been told side-feed has the advantage of even spread of mixture across the top of the piston, but surely top-feed would have the same kind of effect depending on the angle of the injector in the top of the cylinder?

And where does "crossflow" come into the equation?

Cheers,
Bruce

[Dell'Orto]

Crossflow, as in crossflow heads? its when the inlet is on the opposite side of the head to the exhaust, so the mixture flows across the head

[Lanius]

Crossflow, as in crossflow heads? its when the inlet is on the opposite side of the head to the exhaust, so the mixture flows across the head

You mean thats not how it works normally? I thought the intake was always on the opposite side of the head to the outlet ...

Are crossflow heads standard then? What other kind of heads are there as opposed to crossflow heads?

What are their advantages ... ?

(feel free to tell me to bugger off and google it if this is an easy / obvious question ).

[TWSTD]

Fivebob / nemesis - i have some questions re the ignition on the gen 3.5 / gen4 (whatever u want to call it) 3sgte engine from the caldina GTT.

They use a coil on plug setup - is this whats refered to as direct ignition? This means that if one were looking for an aftermarket ECU for this engine it would beed to be able to run 4 coils right? So a "link" for example will not do as it can only run 3. This said it can be set up to run a wasted spart setup right - but thats less than desirable from what ive been told.... Does the type of ignition timing sensor (in this casee hall) affect your choice of ECU also? what type of ECU's can run at least 4 coils? Particularly those at the cheaper end of the scale...?

thanx,

AL