Ideas for more Grunt - 3SGTE?

[fivebob]

I'm sure there'd be something more cost effective than a Motec though surely

No there isn't. All you cheapskates out there need to learn that the real cost of an item isn't just it's purchase price, and you shouldn't spend the least amount possible to do something. Things are cheap for a reason, it's really a question of how many times you want to do a job. Pay a one time premium or pay over and over again for the same poor quality job.

Cost is defined this way. If you buy something (Link,Haltech,Autronic,etc etc) that isn't capable of doing the job (which IMHO they aren't) then you've just wasted the entire cost of install and the cost of a blown motor as well, and it's still going to cost you the price of doing it properly. If you buy something that is more than capable of doing the job (Motec) then the only money you waste is the difference between something that will do the job and what you paid. Plus you don't have the hassle of a blown motor

Right now I haven't got the time to cover this subject fully, but if I were to detail how I would build a reliable high HP 3S-GTE, then you would see why there is only one ECU that's worth the price of admission. Sure there are other ECU's that can produce the power, that's the easy bit. The reliable part of the equation is what's hard, and for that you need to run a lot of ancillary stuff like Thermo fans, Water injection/spray, Boost Control, Electric Water Pumps, and in the case of the Auto GT-T the transmission, most cheap ECUs don't have the spare I/O's or the capability of running some of these complicated devices.

Oh and BTW how much more expensive do you think the Motec is? You might be suprised just how little price difference the is when it comes down to the total cost of ownership

[Dell'Orto]

Well the only Motec I've priced was a M8 or something in a friends Evo..that was the better part of $8k but at the end of the power scale his car was at you're quite right, something cheap would not have cut the mustard.
I got the Link due to the fact it was quite reasonably priced for the features it has, and its relatively easy to install due to the fact it can use all the stock sensors.

When you do have time, I'd love to hear about how to make a reliable high powered 3SGTE...I have a bit of a plan...

[KiwiMR2]

Hey Fivebob....what are your feelings about Power Fc's with Rev III 3sgte's as a cheaper option than Motec?? or are they cheaper?? I think they can be had for about $1400-$1500 with a hand controller.

Cheers
KiwiMR2

[Al]

I think they can be had for about $1400-$1500 with a hand controller.

turbo tezza picked up an altezza one with hand controller brand new for $1250 in a group buy recently.

[Malcolm]

I would quite like to know exactly what aspects of a Motec allow you to make a car more reliable than a Haltech or Autronic. I mean sure, it has better features and stuff, but at the end of the day, assuming the tuning is equal, then why can't an Autronic or Haltech produce the same power and reliability as a Motec? I don't know a huge amount about programmable computers, which is why I would like to know what it is about the Motec that is so much better.

[MarkCL]

I would like to know what it is about the Motec that is so much better.

Me too - coz basically IMHO it isn't. The Autronic is being used on big HP 3S-GTE's as well as MoTeC. The SMC and SM2 can even have auto-tune options which is something that the MoTeC doesn't do AFAIK? At the end of the day if you spend a decent amount of money on a decent ECU then you'll get the result and the safety I've found

Mark

[BBBrad]

Fivebob, how much is a good motec setup cost? Buy cost, extras, install and tune. If u were setting up a custom street/strip or drag car, would u use a different motec comp compared to if u were just setting up one for a road car such as a caldina?
Would also love to read an article on how to build a bullet proof 3sgte.

[anthonym]

I would like to know what it is about the Motec that is so much better.

Me too - coz basically IMHO it isn't. The Autronic is being used on big HP 3S-GTE's as well as MoTeC. The SMC and SM2 can even have auto-tune options which is something that the MoTeC doesn't do AFAIK?

MoTeC is unquestionably superior, but don't take it from me; have a look for yourself:

www.motec.com.au
www.autronic.com
www.haltech.com.au

Key features to consider include:

Individual cylinder fuel and timing trims
Large number of fully user definable auxiliary outputs (particularly PWM)
Large number of fully user definable auxillary inputs
Full compatibility with stock sensors

Other points to consider: do you really think it's an accident that all 3 cars in the 8 second club run MoTeCs? Apparently even the HKS R33 drag car has an M8 hidden under the dash.
Who won the tender to supply ECUs for all the V8 supercars?
When was the last time Autronic released a new ECU?

Finally, MoTeC have had a form of Autotune that actually works for many years, if it were actually possible to fully automatically tune an ECU they'd offer that feature as well.

At the end of the day if you spend a decent amount of money on a decent ECU then you'll get the result and the safety I've found

Mark

Does that mean you have hands on experience installing and tuning a MoTeC or Autronic?

[Lanius]

At the end of the day if you spend a decent amount of money on a decent ECU then you'll get the result and the safety I've found

Could have sworn thats exactly what fivebob said

[anthonym]

Fivebob, how much is a good motec setup cost? Buy cost, extras, install and tune. If u were setting up a custom street/strip or drag car, would u use a different motec comp compared to if u were just setting up one for a road car such as a caldina?
Would also love to read an article on how to build a bullet proof 3sgte.

In lieu of Fivebob's response, I'm about to install my M48 in my '98 MR2 turbo, I'm not sure how much they are these days, but budget between $3000 and $5000 for the ECU (depending on model and options), wiring harness and connectors. I don't need to add any sensors or triggers as the MoTeC will run with the stock ones. I expect it'll take me about 4 hours or so to install, so say $200-300 for that. This is for an install that can be reverted back to the stock ECU in about 5 minutes (not possible with anything else except a Power FC). Tuning has more to do with the engine and tuner than the ECU so I'd consider that a generic cost.

[MrBob]

what are your feelings about Power Fc's with Rev III 3sgte's as a cheaper option than Motec?? or are they cheaper?? I think they can be had for about $1400-$1500 with a hand controller.

expect to pay a wee bit more then that for a new sw20 PFC. More like $2000 for the ecu + 600-750 for the hand controller. SW20 PFCs are actually made by AP engineering so they cost a bit more then PFC for some other models, such as sr20det.

In terms of how effectively they can be tuned, Phoenix Power has a few mr2s on their site making around 700 ps with PFC's Every thing ive read about, and being told about them by tuners, indicates they are superior to the likes of link, autronic etc, however most reputable tuners will also tell you a motec is still considerably better again.

I have a PFC, btw.

[Wildcard]

expect to pay a wee bit more then that for a new sw20 PFC. More like $2000 for the ecu + 600-750 for the hand controller. SW20 PFCs are actually made by AP engineering so they cost a bit more then PFC for some other models, such as sr20det.

The Gen3+ ones seem to be made by Apexi themselves, mine has no AP Engineering branding anywhere. I got a HC+PFC for $2100 a year and a half ago, that wasn't paying any import duties or tax though.

[MrBob]

The Gen3+ ones seem to be made by Apexi themselves, mine has no AP Engineering branding anywhere. I got a HC+PFC for $2100 a year and a half ago, that wasn't paying any import duties or tax though.

neither, its the info Apexi supplied. Oh, and they dont make a pre-genIII one either.

[fivebob]

Hey Fivebob....what are your feelings about Power Fc's with Rev III 3sgte's as a cheaper option than Motec?? or are they cheaper?? I think they can be had for about $1400-$1500 with a hand controller.

For the Gen III IMO they are the best plug and play option, but you need to add the DataLogit if you're going to do anything with them. However, while they are good and you can make high HP with them, they do not have the necessary features to make a reliable (100,000kms+) high HP (450+) 3S-GTE.

I have one in my stock Gen III, with DataLogit, just waiting on my WBO2 to arrive from the US before I start tuning it. FWIW on the stock settings it runs very well, though I seem to have a problem with the boost only going to 8PSI, not sure if it's the ECU though, and until I get the WB I'm happy to leave it there.

Cost is currently 98,000yen + shipping , works out to around $1700-$1800 + GST if you get caught. I wouldn't bother with the H/C, save your money for the DataLogit instead.

According to my sources there is a Gen II option available, not sure who (apart from Phoenix Power) makes them though.

[fivebob]

As I said earlier, I don't have time right now to properly debate this subject, and I already know from the responses I see here that it will be the same argument I've had before which goes like this

"Brand x has the same features as Motec."
"Actually no it doesn't. Does it do .... or ...."
"No, but you don't need those features, and anyway they're too complicated to set up"
"Err, you do need those features, and they're not hard to set up, Motec has a very good user interface"
"There isn't a local tuner that knows Motec"
"You don't need a local tuner, you can do it yourself with Motec"
..... ad infinitum until I get bored with the repetitive and ill-informed nature of the debate and give up and just enjoy my Motec knowing that I have all the ECU I'll ever need (unless I buy an old F1 car).

So now before I start this, I want all who wish to debate (not argue) the merits, or otherwise, of the various systems, to do what I did when evaluating the systems. That is compare all the features, download all the software and manuals, and try to set up the systems for a 3S-GTE from scratch. After doing this you will be in a position to discuss the merits of each system, not just repeat in parrot fashion all the spurious arguments you have seen elsewhere on the internet.

When you've done that (and I've updated myself with the latest software/manuals), then, and only then, will I start by the discussion. Not with the relative merits of each system, but with the topic at hand, the 3S-GTE, it's faults and how to avoid the pitfalls by utilising the ECU's features.

In the meantime if you wish to continue with uninformed discussion on the subject, go ahead, at least I'll know who has an open mind and who to ignore when the real debate begins

Before anyone accuses me of being biased in favour of Motec because I own one, you're wrong, I'm biased towards Motec because I did the evaluation of the software and hardware (which, BTW, is what I do for a living) and IMHO it came out on top, had fewer faults, and had all the features I required. That was before the new windows software came out, and it's a quantum leap from the old DOS based version

If someone can prove to me (by rational debate) that there is a better option then I'll probably go out and buy one to see if it's as good as it's made out to be, I surely have enough cars that need an aftermarket ECU and I'm not afraid to try something different, but I do need to know that anything I use will do the job and continue to do it for many years to come, as I never intend to sell any of my growing fleet of vehicles

[MarkCL]

Cost is defined this way. If you buy something (Link,Haltech,Autronic,etc etc) that isn't capable of doing the job (which IMHO they aren't) then you've just wasted the entire cost of install and the cost of a blown motor as well, and it's still going to cost you the price of doing it properly.

Thats the part of what you said that I have the problem with FiveBob - not that I think Autronic is any better than MoTeC or whatever, just the fact that you slated those other ECU's and basically said they were (a) not up to the job on the 3S-GTE and (b) that you'll end up with a blown motor. Ok, so MoTeC may be the best, most advanced etc, but it doesn't mean to say that someone who buys one of the others, gets it properly installed and mapped is not going to have a powerful reliable engine because thats simply not the case. Just because MoTeC is the best, doesn't mean it's the only way to do something.

To answer an earlier question as to whether I've installed one or not, the answer is no - not yet I have however seen a 500bhp 300SX running 47mpg fuel economy off boost and still pushing out that 500bhp now over 2 and half years and some 20,000 miles after it was first set up with an Autronic SMC. Also there's Dennis Heath who runs an SMC http://extra.newsguy.com/~gtfour/

So - no debate as such because I agree that on the whole MoTeC is the best, but thats not to say it's the only safe way to do things

Mark

[Twolitre]

what are your feelings about Power Fc's with Rev III 3sgte's as a cheaper option than Motec?? or are they cheaper?? I think they can be had for about $1400-$1500 with a hand controller.

expect to pay a wee bit more then that for a new sw20 PFC. More like $2000 for the ecu + 600-750 for the hand controller. SW20 PFCs are actually made by AP engineering so they cost a bit more then PFC for some other models, such as sr20det.

Yeah I'd say a little bit more than $1500 for a Power FC with Hand controller, I'd say NZ$1,732.91 to be exact

[fivebob]

Alright now I have some time let me kick off the discussion, and yes MarkCL, by the time we've finished this discussion I will justify my view that the other ECU's are not capable of producing the same HP with the same reliability as Motec

Over the years there have been a few attempts to stop 3S-GTE from failing. However all of these attempts have been solutions for problems that weren’t properly defined. If you don’t know what’s going wrong how can you fix it? This strategy brought about several urban myths about the 3S-GTE, like “you need a Supra fuel pump”, or even “a dual feed fuel rail is the answer”. An answer to what I ask? To the best of my knowledge nobody has ever put a fuel pressure & flow sensor on and logged the data, either before or after these mods. If they had then I doubt these “fixes” would have been done or attained the legendary status that they have. Simple data logging would have shown that there was/was not a fuel supply or pressure problem, and if these mods fixed it. No, they relied on the old “it hasn’t blown so I must’ve fixed it” adage, to which I say “fixed what?” and “Don’t you mean it hasn’t blown yet?”. These mods don’t solve the problem, and there a plenty of people who’ve done them that still blow their motors.

So what next? Well if you’re the typical MR2 enthusiast you find a new miracle cure (Evans Coolant) and invent the problem it solves (micro boiling), of course you provide no data (or you provide data that proves nothing about what you claim to be the problem) and everyone jumps on the bandwagon, cursing the naysayers and hyping up the benefits of this new wonder cure to all that will listen. I must admit to a quiet chuckle when the chief proponent of this particular snake oil blew his motor

What you really need to do is find out why the 3S-GTE is blowing up, and before anyone shouts the D word, I don’t mean the method of failure (that’s pretty obvious), but what causes the detonation to occur in the first place. That is why you need data-logging, along with the tools and skills to set it up and interpret the data. This is where the aftermarket ECU shines, not only can you log he data, but you can change settings and see what effect these changes have.

So now we have identified one of the important features that is required lets have a look at what is on offer from the ECU’s. I’ll stick to comparing the Motec M400/600 (with notes where the M800/880 differs), Haltech E11 & Autronic SM2 but if you have any other ECU’s you’d like to compare please post their features. I apologise if I make any mistakes in the specs for the Autronic/Haltech as I’m not as familiar with them as the Motec, and can only rely on what I can read in their manuals/ find in the software.

Motec - Optional 512kb (M800 = 1mb, M880 =4mb) onboard logging for up to 64 channels at one time (from about 300 possible), logging rate variable for each channel at 1,2,5,10,20,50,100, or 200hz. Remote telemetry option, All ECU channels can be logged at 20Hz using a CAN compatible logger e.g. ADL. Has very good interpreter software for viewing the data, also supports CSV export.

Haltech - 448kb onboard, up to 10 channels from a possible 81, all channels logged at either 1,10 or 200hz, can be RPM activated. Also supports unlimited logging to PC for up to 20 channels (from a possible 60), at 10hz, software only supports viewing in 2 minute chunks very limited graphing abilities, files are CSV.

Autronic - hard to find data about the onboard system, from a search on the net it appears to have only 32kb onboard, 16 channels (out of 44) @50hz enough for about 30secs of 8 channels, no wonder they don’t mention it anywhere. PC logging for 76(?) channels at .2,.5,1,2,5,10,20hz (limited by transmission speed), remote telemetry option. Log viewing software is IMO not very user friendly and has poor interpretation facilities, although it does have XY plots which on the Motec requires the advanced logging option or export to an external graphing solution e.g. Excel.

IMHO Motec is the clear winner in the Datalogging stakes, with the only black mark being no direct PC logging, which IME is not required and this limitation can be overcome if required (I wrote a program to download the log from the ECU every 10 minutes)

That’s enough for a start, any comments?

[MarkCL]

At the end of the day if you spend a decent amount of money on a decent ECU then you'll get the result and the safety I've found

Could have sworn thats exactly what fivebob said

Not quite - he said if you spend lots of money on a MoTeC then you'll get the results, but if you spend lots on an Autronic/Haltech etc then you won't and you'll have wasted your money etc I tend to disagree, but unfortunately I don't have the depth of technical knowledge to be able to prove beyond doubt that MoTeC, while it is probably the best, is not the ONLY choice you guys & girlz have

Mark

[MarkCL]

That’s enough for a start, any comments?

Only that if Rod Millen can manage to build a 1000 horsepower Toyota engine for his Pikes Peak hillclimb record holding car using a Haltech E6K ECU then it can't be all that bad surely?

Mark