Ideas for more Grunt - 3SGTE?

[fivebob]

At the end of the day if you spend a decent amount of money on a decent ECU then you'll get the result and the safety I've found

Could have sworn thats exactly what fivebob said

Not quite - he said if you spend lots of money on a MoTeC then you'll get the results, but if you spend lots on an Autronic/Haltech etc then you won't and you'll have wasted your money etc I tend to disagree, but unfortunately I don't have the depth of technical knowledge to be able to prove beyond doubt that MoTeC, while it is probably the best, is not the ONLY choice you guys & girlz have

I respectfully suggest that if you wish to contribute constructively to this debate, that you don't misquote or misconstrue what I said. I most certainly did not say "if you spend lots of money on a MoTeC" in fact it's just the opposite as we shall find out

If you don't have the technical knowledge and/or are not prepared to download and evaluate the software I suggest that the peanut gallery might like to keep quiet while the rational debate continues

[fivebob]

That’s enough for a start, any comments?

Only that if Rod Millen can manage to build a 1000 horsepower Toyota engine for his Pikes Peak hillclimb record holding car using a Haltech E6K ECU then it can't be all that bad surely?

There you go misconstruing what I said again. Pray tell me why you consider Millens 1000HP, methanol powered, race engine (which by all internet legends is not a 3S-GTE, but let's not start that debate ) to be a 100,000km+ reliable, streetable engine, I must have missed that part in you indepth evaluation

Millen's record is 10:04.06 to get up the hill, not exactly a test in longevity now is it, hmmmm maybe he needed a Motec to break the 10 minute barrier

Now again in language Mark might understand, without feeling the need to comment for the "cheap seats", I ask...

Any comments about the datalogging capabilities of the above mentioned ECU's or anything constructive to add about other ECU's ?

[MarkCL]

Now again in language Mark might understand, without feeling the need to comment for the "cheap seats",

Cheap shot, and unecessary. At no point have I belittled you. I've had my GT-Four now for four years, had it running 360 horsepower on stock internals and met a lot of professional tuners. Not one of them has been quite so arrogant as you in their opinions though when it came down to engine management. I just thought people would be a little more open minded is all, my mistake. I'll get me coat...

Mark

[fivebob]

Cheap shot, and unecessary. At no point have I belittled you.

Cheap shot, maybe. Unnecessary I'm not so sure, you seem to have missed where I stated earlier

So now before I start this, I want all who wish to debate (not argue) the merits, or otherwise, of the various systems, to do what I did when evaluating the systems. That is compare all the features, download all the software and manuals, and try to set up the systems for a 3S-GTE from scratch. After doing this you will be in a position to discuss the merits of each system, not just repeat in parrot fashion all the spurious arguments you have seen elsewhere on the internet.

To my mind you weren't prepared to pay the full price of admission to this debate, i.e. downloading the software & manuals, doing a proper evaluation of the products and engaging in rational debate about the subject, hence you were commenting from "the cheap seats". If I am mistaken then I apologise, if not then how about contributing to the debate in a sensible manner.

I've had my GT-Four now for four years, had it running 360 horsepower on stock internals and met a lot of professional tuners. Not one of them has been quite so arrogant as you in their opinions though when it came down to engine management. I just thought people would be a little more open minded is all, my mistake. I'll get me coat...

Care to reveal the mods that made you 360HP, if that HP at the wheels then it's certainly a respectable figure from a ST205.

Arrogant, maybe it appears that way, perhaps though it could just be I get sick and tired of people saying that Brand X is as good as if not better than a Motec for less cost, which simply is not true as you will see. BTW the cost difference in the base price of the 3 systems I compared is around $100 in Australia not much more to pay for those extra features is it now?

As to whether I am open minded or not, perhaps that is best answered by the fact that since I purchased and installed the Motec for my MR2, I have also purchased a Power FC for another of my MR2's, Kalmaker software for my Holden and even dare I admit it, recommended to a good friend that they buy an EManage or Link (not for a 3S-GTE) because that was what their budget allowed.

So for the record I will state now that I consider that almost any aftermarket ECU is better than stock, it's just that some are better than others.

Don't go leaving this thread because I've offended you by my brash, boorish manner, stick around, but please try to stay on topic and contribute constructively to the debate, not just snipe with comments that add nothing.

Might I be so bold as to suggest that you'd get far more respect from me if you pointed out why the features of the Motec that I am expounding are not required for a high HP reliable 3S-GTE.

[anthonym]

. . .and met a lot of professional tuners. Not one of them has been quite so arrogant as you in their opinions though when it came down to engine management. I just thought people would be a little more open minded is all, my mistake. I'll get me coat...

Mark

In my experience "professional" tuners nearly always have an agenda when it comes to ECUs as they are often agents for a particular brand or have a bias or familiarity with a particular brand. Fivebob is a consumer who is prepared to back up his choice with exhaustive and reasoned argument, AFAIK he has no agenda.

I used to be a little more open minded myself when it was Autronic SM2 vs. MoTeC M8. When I chose my MoTeC several years ago I carefully evaluated all options, pretty much as Fivebob has described, and narrowed my choice to Autronic and MoTeC; I decided the MoTeC was better and since it was about the same price, it won. Over the last few years though, MoTeC has advanced the game by an order of magnitude whereas Autronic appears to have done very little if anything.

[GT-T]

Who has the ECU wiring diagram for 3SGTE Gen III/IV ? from Caldina GT-T. It's a individual coil over plug.

I'm looking for the revolution signal wire

Help please

[fivebob]

Who has the ECU wiring diagram for 3SGTE Gen III/IV ? from Caldina GT-T. It's a individual coil over plug.

I'm looking for the revolution signal wire

A collection of diagrams from the Apexi Install manuals


And just for reference the complete 3S-GE (SW20?) with the same connectors which seems to share most of the same pin assignments

[Wolf_Tm250]

For the Gen III IMO they are the best plug and play option, but you need to add the DataLogit if you're going to do anything with them. However, while they are good and you can make high HP with them, they do not have the necessary features to make a reliable (100,000kms+) high HP (450+) 3S-GTE.

Hi fivebob,

I'm Wolf from Italy and I own a modded GT four-ST205 with Power FC in.

Could you please explain me why I'll have to buy DataLogit ?

Sorry, but I have not understand what I'm not able to tune in my Power FC without it, and I think you could explain me cause you have it.

And why you're saying you can't tune a reliable high hp 3sgte with it ?

Thank you, bye

[GT-T]

Thanks Fivebob,

so, which one is the "engine revolutions signal"? and which one is "speed signal"?

[Al]

so, which one is the "engine revolutions signal"? and which one is "speed signal"?

Did you not look at the diagrams???

C22 and C27

[Akane]

Now I fully understand the data logging part of MoTeC ECU, what's more valueable than blowing up an engine, but not knowing why, don't you hate it when there are some noise from the engine bay and all you can say is "WTF was that?".

The question I have is, I believe there are a few things that the stock ECU have, but the MoTeC don't have, like the speed sensor for power steering, or am I thinking something else that's wrong?

Just want to know, if one purchases a MoTeC ECU, what function of the stock ECU is the buyer have to be prepared to lose out on?

Hate to purchase a ECU, then "Oh I can't use X and Y function in my car now coz I am using an aftermarket"

[GT-T]

Just being lazy. hehe. Thanks for all the info!

[GT-T]

Just being lazy. hehe. Thanks for all the info!

[Malcolm]

fivebob - firstly, thank you for the very informative post about the logging abilities of the various ecu's. You keep saying that the motec isn't much more expensive than an Autronic or Haltec. From what I've heard, you can pick these up for around $2,500-3,500, depending on where you're buying from, whereas I thought the motec was around the $5K mark. If a motec can be had for only $100 more than an Autronic or Haltec, then it is definately worth the extra, so where can you buy a motec for the low prices you speak of?

[anthonym]

The question I have is, I believe there are a few things that the stock ECU have, but the MoTeC don't have, like the speed sensor for power steering, or am I thinking something else that's wrong?

Just want to know, if one purchases a MoTeC ECU, what function of the stock ECU is the buyer have to be prepared to lose out on?

I'd guess an M800 can do everything, but with an M4 or M48, the easiest way to retain all the stock functionality is to piggy back off the standard ECU. This is easier with a gen III as it is MAP based, but with a gen II you just need to run a flying loom for the extra sensors. This way the stock ECU still handles all the boring stuff, idle control, power steering swtich on, AC idle up etc, and the MoTeC controls the engine.

[MarkCL]

Might I be so bold as to suggest that you'd get far more respect from me if you pointed out why the features of the Motec that I am expounding are not required for a high HP reliable 3S-GTE

Actually I think we aren't going to be able to make any progress here because I feel that fundamentally we're coming at this from two different angles/points of view.

From your point of view - and forgive me if I misinterpret what you're getting at - it seems that it's the technical capabilities and extra functionality of the MoTeC system that are so important to a safely mapped engine?

For me the technical aspects of the ECU are actually secondary to the capability and knowledge of the person tuning/mapping the car. No matter how clever and technically advanced/excellent an ECU you have, it still can't save you from poor mapping/tuning, whereas with a capable ECU (such as the Haltech, Autronic, DTA, MoTeC etc) then a competant tuner can map the engine for power, economy and safety without the need for all the other "bells and whistles" as it were. Hence my comment on Rod Millen, which wasn't sniping - merely pointing out that Rod had used a Haltech E6K ECU to map a 1000hp engine (which I know is some weird hybrid 3S-5F type beast, hence my comment saying "Toyota engine" rather than 3S-GTE), and while that is not a 100,000KM 3S-GTE, I thought it still a valid example of someone successfully mapping an engine for great power etc using an ECU other than MoTeC.

This is just my own point of view on things and I doubt I'll convince you of the validity of what I'm saying anymore than you can convince me that the ONLY way to a safe and powerful engine is by using the MoTeC

So, hows about we put this to bed - agree to disagree and move on? The main reason why I came on here was as a source of information about the Levin GT-Z as I've just imported one from Japan as what I know about it so far I could currently fit in a thimble

Rgds,
Mark

[Malcolm]

FWIW I believe the engine in Rod Millen's Celica (and possibly the Tacoma) is a 503e race engine, rather than a 3S hybrid

[Akane]

Thanks, didn't know you can run it in piggyback mode with the MoTeC

[fivebob]

Could you please explain me why I'll have to buy DataLogit ?
Sorry, but I have not understand what I'm not able to tune in my Power FC without it, and I think you could explain me cause you have it.

Datalogit isn't available for the ST205 so you're stuck with the commander of finding someone with the Apexi Software to tune it for you.

Datalogit provides access to all the maps and settings which the commander doesn't. Also provides the ability to log all the parameters and to interface and log additional sensors like wideband O2. Without datalogging you are going to have difficulty tuning the PowerFC properly. It's possible but not easy to do with the limited logging from the commander.

And why you're saying you can't tune a reliable high hp 3sgte with it ?

My definition of high HP & reliability (450HP & 100,000kms+) is not easy to achieve. There is no datalogging on the standard Power FC, and only limited logging with the Datalogit. Also with the lack of spare outputs for running things like water injection, thermo fans etc and only basic compensations available in the PowerFC I doubt you get the HP & reliability using this ECU. Should be OK to around 350, maybe even 400HP, but IMO any more than that and reliability becomes a bit of a lottery.

[fivebob]

fivebob - firstly, thank you for the very informative post about the logging abilities of the various ecu's. You keep saying that the motec isn't much more expensive than an Autronic or Haltec. From what I've heard, you can pick these up for around $2,500-3,500, depending on where you're buying from, whereas I thought the motec was around the $5K mark. If a motec can be had for only $100 more than an Autronic or Haltec, then it is definately worth the extra, so where can you buy a motec for the low prices you speak of?

Prices in AUS are $2700 for the Autronic, $2800 for the Haltech and $2800 for the M400 ($3400 for the M800)

In NZ try the local agents, price for the M400 is around $3200 but you'll need to add the basic loom to that, and cable if you want to program it yourself.

The major cost is not the ECU itself, but the installation and tuning. Which if you're at all mechanically inclined, and more importantly approach the tuning logically, you can do it yourself. I did it completely from scratch, ie no base maps, and while I made some mistakes by taking a careful approach I avoided doing damage to my motor. Though I did blow a knock sensor by running 96 when I'd tuned it for 98 octane